A mic PreAmp idea I am toying with.

  • Thread starter Thread starter chewbacaface
  • Start date Start date
C

chewbacaface

New member
I have been thinking about purchasing a high end stereo mic preamp becasue I want to get some of that vintage warmth in my vocal and drum recordings. I want the kind of warm fuzz breakup that you can't seem to get from cheaper presonus type preamps. Here is what I am considering trying and I wanted to see if anyone else had done this already.

I am thinking I might buy an old tube Pioneer or Onkyo stereo receiver that has rca line level inputs and outputs (which is pretty standard) and run my effects send and return through it to see if that will do the trick. I have a nice Yamaha mixer that has basically zero noise and zero color, so, I am thinking that if I just loop the mixer through the nice vintage tubes in the receiver I might be able to really warm up everything going through my mixer. If it works out well, I might be able to get a the effect of a 1000$ preamp with a 100$ receiver from ebay.

Any thoughts? Anyone tried this before?
My only realy concern would be potential latency.

Thanks,
ryan

-ryan
 
I can't imagine it will work.

Sounds like you need a boutique tube or heavy transformer preamp.

If there were easy shortcuts, somebody would be rich by now.

By give your idea a try. It may work and you'll get full gloating rights.
 
Yeah, I assumed the same thing. If it was that easy, somebody would have done it. The funny thing is, I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't work and these old receivers have vintage tubes that you can find in clean and quiet shape on ebay. You can pick some of these things up for less thatn 100$ and the tubes in them are worth more than that.

At the same time, I think people also often assume that there isn't any alternative to buying some super expensive equipment to creating a good sound and that just isn't true.

We'll see, I'm going to give ti a try.

-ryan
 
Ignoring the fact that you'll have to be careful with your gain structure because the I/O on those receivers is running some 12dB lower than the FX I/O on your mixer, it will nevertheless never work the way you think it will because you're probably not going to actually be running your signal through any tubes.

Assuming those receivers actually use any tubes at all, unless you are going back to a late 50's or early 60's model, any tubes they would use would almost certainly be probably be used in the power amplifier section only and not in the preamplifier section.

And even if you had a *real* tube preamp like a nice old McIntosh, which would still wind up costing you a pretty penny, you'd not be driving those tubes very hard because you wouldn't actually be pre-amplifying anything; your signal will pretty much just be passing through relatively un-amplified. It takes more than just passing voltage through tubes to get a "tube sound"; it helps if the tubes are actually doing something ;).

G.
 
Okay, that's good info. Thanks.

Most of the old stuff I'm looking at from the 60s and 70s have a mix of 12AX7s, etc... It's the same type of tubes that are coming with my prosonus stuff. So, in some ways I could justify testing it simply because I could use the tubes either way in something else if I wanted.

That said, I am really looking to run it through the phono jacks which should be using the pre-amp part (I think). I may be wrong but that was kind of my idea. I was going to use the the parts of the amp that would actually be amplifying. I am not an electrician by any means though, so, I may just blow some sh!t up. Who knows?

-ryan
 
chewbacaface said:
Most of the old stuff I'm looking at from the 60s and 70s have a mix of 12AX7s, etc... It's the same type of tubes that are coming with my prosonus stuff. So, in some ways I could justify testing it simply because I could use the tubes either way in something else if I wanted.
Click to expand...
There can always be exceptions, I suppose, but the vast majority of Japanese receivers from that time used the tubes only in the amplifier section driving the speakers, but the preamp section remained transistorized.
chewbacaface said:
That said, I am really looking to run it through the phono jacks which should be using the pre-amp part (I think).
Click to expand...
The phono preamp (which is really a kind of pre-preamplifier, feeding into the main preamp) is designed to bring the extreme low voltage of the signal from a moving magnet phono cartridge up to the consumer line level of the rest of the preamp inputs. It's specifications are on another planet altogether from those of the FX send of your mixer. Add to that the chances of the phono preamp section using a tube design are extremely minimal, I'd recommend putting you money into a fund to save up for a better microphone preamp instead.

G.
 
Thanks. It was a shot in the dark. How do you feel about some of the old tube mic preamps that are on ebay. I have seen some that go for 150-200$. Do you think that route is better than buying another presonus bluetube? It's not like I hate them or anything. I just have to mix my stuff and send it off to a friend who puts it all through a LavryBlue to warm it up. I'd just like to skip the last step for both of our sakes. I'm only really having him do it for the warmth factor. He isn't making any other real adjustments.
 
chewbacaface said:
Thanks. It was a shot in the dark. How do you feel about some of the old tube mic preamps that are on ebay. I have seen some that go for 150-200$.
Click to expand...
Even though I have an eBay store for studio gear on my website, I don't claim to be all that knowledgeable on pricing of used gear, so I can't say what specific models you might be referring to. But AFIK, most of the good stuff tends to retain much of it's value/price even when sold used.

I also wouldn't recommend getting hung up on the term "tube". Most of the really good-sounding stuff is tube-based yes, but there's a whole lot of dreck out there where they've thrown some tube design in just to attract those in love with "toobs", but in which the tubes don't do much of anything useful except glow and raise the electricity bill. IOW, just because something has a tube or tubes in it doesn't necessarily mean it will do what you want it to do.

IME, when talking about new prices (not used) for mic preamps, it's not until you start getting into the $600-700 range where you really start hearing preamps that begin to truly fulfill the promise of high-quality tube preamps. Just a few of many examples would include the True P-Solo, UA 610, or Grace 101. If you can get something like that in good condition on eBay for a bargain price, I'd grab it. Otherwise, for $200, the Presonus BlueTUBE is not an awful way to go.

P.S. You're welcome to click on my website icon in my signature. If when you get to my website you click on the "Marketplace" menu icon, that will bring you to an automatic listing of eBay offering for all sorts of studio gear broken down by gear type. There's an entire section dedicated to microphone preamps. I'm not selling anything myself, its just a quick and easy way of listing studio gear that's currently on eBay without a lot of searching and bad hits. Click on the little gray icon on the right side of the title bar for the preamps section, and you'll get a full-page illustrated and detailed listing of the offerings available.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
I also wouldn't recommend getting hung up on the term "tube".
Click to expand...
Agreed
SouthSIDE Glen said:
Most of the really good-sounding stuff is tube-based yes,
Click to expand...
I disagree. Most of the highly sought after preamps (Neve, API, Pacifica, Massenburg, Millenium, John Hardy and clones thereof) are not tube, but typically employ solid state componentry, often with big transformers that give the kind of coloration most mistakenly attribute to tubes.
SouthSIDE Glen said:
but there's a whole lot of dreck out there where they've thrown some tube design in just to attract those in love with "toobs", but in which the tubes don't do much of anything useful except glow and raise the electricity bill. IOW, just because something has a tube or tubes in it doesn't necessarily mean it will do what you want it to do.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
 
Todzilla said:
Agreed

I disagree. Most of the highly sought after preamps (Neve, API, Pacifica, Massenburg, Millenium, John Hardy and clones thereof) are not tube, but typically employ solid state componentry, often with big transformers that give the kind of coloration most mistakenly attribute to tubes.

Agreed.
Click to expand...


Roger that.
 
Todzilla said:
I disagree. Most of the highly sought after preamps (Neve, API, Pacifica, Massenburg, Millenium, John Hardy and clones thereof) are not tube, but typically employ solid state componentry, often with big transformers that give the kind of coloration most mistakenly attribute to tubes.
Click to expand...
Point well taken. I probably should have used the term "much" and not "most".

Also, a lot depends upon the metrics used top define "much" and "most". Whether one looks at it in terns of unit sales or number of models available, those definitions can vary. Also, I'm talking more midrange stuff on the order of the models I listed, as talking $2000+ preamps is a waste of time in the context of the OP's situation. As it is he can't even afford a new Grace or UA, let alone a GML.

G.
 
Perhaps my approach is against the grain, but I don't care to lay down "warm" tracks. The problem is always that a single track changes with the addition of other instruments. Sometimes warm=mud.

I prefer to lay down a vocal with a great mic and a basic tube pre that's not overdriven. Just a strong, clear voice. Then after the rest is added, I'll go back with the PSP Vintage Tube Warmer and give it what it needs.
 
chewbacaface said:
That said, I am really looking to run it through the phono jacks which should be using the pre-amp part (I think). I may be wrong but that was kind of my idea. I was going to use the the parts of the amp that would actually be amplifying. I am not an electrician by any means though, so, I may just blow some sh!t up. Who knows?

-ryan
Click to expand...
The phone jack, aside from everything that Glen mentioned will also be going through the RIAA EQ. When records are made, they use a pre-emphasis/de-emphasis EQ to get better frequency response from the disk. There is no way to turn off the EQ.

I think part of the problem you are having is that you assume that tubes have something to do with the sound you are looking for. If you are looking for classic sound from the 70's and 80's, that was all solid state preamps with transformers like Neves and APIs. Most engineers (at the time) hated tube preamps because of the distortion and heat, etc...
 
Sorry I'm still chuckling about latency :D

Anyway, often tubes are configured as fixed-gain with attenuation in between stages. This is because tubes aren't real good at low voltage gain. So tubes are probably pretty much always "doing something". The question is what?
 
mshilarious said:
Anyway, often tubes are configured as fixed-gain with attenuation in between stages. This is because tubes aren't real good at low voltage gain. So tubes are probably pretty much always "doing something". The question is what?
Click to expand...
Getting hot for no reason. Even if one did have a true tube-based preamp, it would never actually get used in the way Chewie was envisioning anyway.

Let's ignore the phono preamp part of it for a moment (thanks for the reminder about the RIAA EQ, Jay. That certainly is the nail in the coffin.) If one is going into the back of the receiver directly into the preamp via an Aux In or Tape In, or other line in, I don't believe the signal ever actually gets routed through the preamp circuitry before being sent back out one of the other line outs. Those line I/Os are pretty much straight bussed before hitting the preamp, are they not? For if the preamp were engaged, as you say Jon, the volume attenuator - not to mention tone controls, loudness button, balance, etc - would be affecting the signal at the outputs, yet they remain untouched.

G,
 
mshilarious said:
Sorry I'm still chuckling about latency :D

Anyway, often tubes are configured as fixed-gain with attenuation in between stages. This is because tubes aren't real good at low voltage gain. So tubes are probably pretty much always "doing something". The question is what?
Click to expand...

Oh, you can chuckle away. The fact of the matter is that I'm a pretty solid musician who can play most instruments at or above average. I've managed to make solid recordings in my basement that sound as good as any of the studio recordings in my town using decent equipment and being self taught. My ability to afford a good mic pre is not an issue. I can afford it. I don't necessarily want to spend the money unless there will be significant improvements. It doesn't make sense to drop 1500$ on something that I wont be competent enough to leverage in my music. It made sense to buy a 3000$ mac pro because I was over extending my processor routinely. I don't know that I have gone beyond the value of my bluetube yet. It may be a matter of me spending more time to find the sweet spot in it.

As for my desire to hear a tube vs a solid state it comes directly from my experience with guitar amps. I have used several of both and for my money there is no comparison. I will put a tube amp up against a solid state any time any place. There is nobody with a competent ear who can convince me that a solid state amp can recreate the sound of a dual rectifier or a nice twin reverb. They just aren't as warm and they don't break up as well. That is what I am basing my opinion on. I don't have a lot of experience with mic pres and so I was looking for opinions. In the world of guitar tube amps, you can recondition old tuners and such to make them into pretty solid guitar amps. So, I was looking to do the same thing here and I was getting some pretty good feedback until the snobery set in.

Look, I'm in a tiny home studio with some decent equipment and I'll put my recordings up against most because I have a quality ear for music which I think is more imprtant than any peice of equipment you can buy.Take that for what you will, or be a jerk about it. I don't care.

Anyway, thanks Southside for your help. I do appreciate it.

-ryan
 
chewbacaface said:
As for my desire to hear a tube vs a solid state it comes directly from my experience with guitar amps.
Click to expand...
Guitar amps and mic preamps don't have much in common. The type of compression and distortion that you want from a guitar amp is no where close to what you want from a mic preamp. Tube mic preamps don't distort like guitar amps do. (Hell, Fenders and Marshalls don't distort the same way either)

Of course, even then, transformer saturation has a lot to do with the sound of a tube guitar amp. Possibly even more than the tubes. A guitar amp gets it's sound form the whole system. The tubes, the transformers and the speakers. Each one serves to limit frequency response, compress and distort in thier own way.

Well designed mic preamps are designed to be as clean as possible and most of the 'warmth' comes from the transformers. The downside is that it is really expensive to make a well designed tube circuit. The voltages are much higher than with SS, so everything has to be beefed up. Transformers cost a lot of money, etc...

I would go so far as to bet that the vast majority of the music in your collection that you think is warm and wonderful sounding was recorded with solid state preamps, certainly anything after 1970.
 
I would certainly agree as far as the mic preamps go. the more I look into the higher end stuff the more I find out that it isn't all tubes. \

As for guitar amps, the sound does come from everything. That's obvious when you go between a Fender and a Behringer that both use the same tubes and sound remarkably different. However, I have retubed my Fenders (DeVilles) a few times and there is also a huge difference in sound just between tubes themselves. I recently went from the original Fender tubes which I think were Sovtec and switched to set of JJs and it was a huge change. The sound was much deeper and I had to set the amp bias higher in order to get them to break up much at all.

With that in mind, I am wondering if I would get any benefit from simply replacing the tube in my Presonus? Or, is it being used so lightly that it is simply for visual effect and not really doing anything to the sound?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top