a little problem

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Rusty K

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Hello,

As I've endeavoured to increase the levels of my mixes/masters a little problem has come up. I A/B as I'm mixing between my monitors and headphones. It seems to help me zero in on the proper placement of tracks in the mix. I've noticed during this process that my headphones seem to reveal audio distortions before my studio monitors and I'm wondering if this is a true audio picture or if my headphones are just breaking up. It sounds more like a clip but I have no other indication of clipping and I'm not hearing it with my desktop monitors (Tannoy). I've never pushed the headphones over 60% although I've had these Sony's for a few years.

I'm almost certain the distortions I hear are real but I was hoping that someone might enlighten me before I go through the process of remixing.

Thanks,
Rusty K
 
Perhaps try listening to something similar in style/content from a commercial CD thorugh the headphones. If you hear similar "distortion", your phones could be whacked.

G.
 
SS Glen,

I've done that and the phones are ok as far as I can tell. This is what weirds me out. I can't believe the phones are more sensitive than my monitors.

Thanks,
Rusty K
 
This is why I like to check things out on headphones. Sometimes you can catch some subtle detail like slight distortion, clicks and such that you wouldn't notice on monitors. It's partly because the home studios aren't really the quietest places, so some sounds get masked by the ambient noise, and sometimes the separation that you get in the headphones helps reveal flaws.

Usually I find that if a mix works both on the headphones and the monitors, it translates well to other systems.
 
noisewreck,

Exactly! Thanks for setting my mind at ease a bit about this. Since my first posting I've checked out my original mixes and they are all ok. The distortions came in when I was trying to push the levels during the mastering process. I would not have guessed that the reason that I was not hearing the distortions in my monitors was "ambient noise". Just shows that home recorders shouldn't forget the advantages of the true studio setting.

I would recommend A/B ing between monitors and headphones to all. I often think that I have a mix in my monitors only to listen with phones to find the placement seems off or at least doesn't sound as good in the phones.

Thanks,
Rusty K
 
Ok so I've tried remastering but I can't push the levels at all before they distort in my headphones. These levels don't resemble any industry outputs. I'm only able to let the peaks sit at about -1db.

I noticed that the distortion increases as I push my soundcard monitor out fader to max. This makes me think that it's something else entirely. Should I just disregard the headphone distortion if I can't hear in my room monitors? Or is there something else I'm missing?

This gets me into a larger "mastering question". I've checked out industry CD's and their levels. Many are pushed right up to 0db with a solid waveform. Until this present problem with my headphones I was achieving the same at about -1db. I assumed the difference was in the quality of the equipment used in the major studios and mastering houses. Is this the case or do I just need to learn more about getting the most our my mastering process?

Rusty K
 
Rusty K said:
Is this the case or do I just need to learn more about getting the most our my mastering process?
Click to expand...
I think you need to learn more about your mixing process.
 
What kind of card do you have? Poor headphone amp?

I remember upgrading from the SB Audigy Platinum to the EMU 1820, the headphones cleaned WAY up.

As for mixing, yeah I'd shoot at peak/RMS levels instead of just peak. Visist Elemental Audio's website and get the Inspector plugin (free). It will show you peak and RMS. Look at the values of commercial CD's versus yours. In my latest mix, I had my mixes down about -14 dBs and peaking around -10 dBs. Very easy to get your levels up when you only need a touch of compression and limiting.
 
Yareek,

Now you've really got me confused...easy to do.

-10/-14db...why so quiet? I've heard all kinds of opinions on what to shoot for in a mix. Most say -3db, a real time professional engineer told me he shoots for -1db. This is pre mastering I think since he believes that if you have a good mix you don't need to master very much, but any comparison to industry CD levels will show that depending on the type of music they are able to push/squeeze the signal to almost 0db.

As I stated my mixes (around -1db with some peaks even hotter) aren't distorting in the headphones. It's only after I try to squeeze some more db during mastering. So you are saying it would help for "leveling" purposes to back off the hot mix to say a -3db or even down to your levels
(less need for compression)?

I have a 24 LynxOne soundcard (recommended by sonusman an HR legend). My headphone amp is a SM5HP Studio Module.

I think Adobe Audition will calculate peak vs rms but I'll check it out and visit the website you mentioned.

Thanks you've been very helpful,

Rusty K
 
Another thought. It's possible that you have a lot of bass frequencies (sub 30Hz) that the limiting process is exacerbating and pushing the headphones to clip. You wouldn't really hear them on headphones, or most nearfields, but they'd do some damage. When listening on the monitors, watch your woofers to see if you've got too much bass energy.
 
Tannoy's have been known to be very bass heavy, so be careful how much you're shoving down them.
 
Ok I remixed a song at about -3db and then squeezed it hard up to -.5db with no distortion in the headphones. It's obvious my original mixes were way to hot. The waveform sat almost solid at -.5db.

Yareek if you have the time I'd still like to hear your methodology in mixing down to between -14 and -10 db.

Thanks everyone,

Rusty K
 
JP,

Just to follow up on your post about Tannoy's being bass heavy. I take that to mean they reflect more bass than some other monitors? If that is the case then it would seem that one would be adding much less bass into the mix rather than more....right?

Rusty K
 
Sorry Rusty, I worded that very poorly. The Tannoy's that I've worked on were kind of light on the low end, so I would add some to compensate. I'd take the mix out to my car to check it and my sub would almost rattle out of my trunk.
 
Hey quick questions.

Hey guys,

Is the limitter introducing the distortion as a result of too much compression?

Or is it that since your average power is too high (as a result of limitting and gain compensation), that your headphones just can't take the 'heat' (pun intended)?

Is it even and odd harmonic content? (spectrum analyzer, inspect above 16K)

.. or as someone mentionned, have you forgotten to roll off a bit of bass under, what is it, 30 Hz? I guess that would lead to your headphones being pushed way too hard, then any content above that 'power floor' would just make the phones 'fart'.

Is it a farty distortion? .. or one that's rich in harmonics?

Tristan
 
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Update.....

Still having some trouble. Actually I'm not going to call it trouble anymore. It's just where I happen to be on the "learning curve" at this time.

Here's a quote from a link that I got somewhere probably here at HR. I've also included a link to this resource.

11. Listen to the finished master all the way through, preferably using headphones, as these have the ability to show up small glitches and noises that loudspeakers may mask. Digital clicks can occur in even the best systems, though using good quality digital interconnects that are no longer than necessary helps to reduce the risk.
Click to expand...

http://www.theprojectstudiohandbook.com/articles9.htm

The rosie scenario from my last post is not quite right yet. I'm still not able to squeeze the waveform as much as I'd like on certain songs. The same article quoted above stated that with a good limiter I should be able to increase the level by 6db without noticing much but I haven't achieved that yet...still working on it though.

One thing about the headphones vs. room monitors is that I listen with my soundcard monitor fader on max with headphones but with the room monitors I back off the volume so I don't blow my head off. I'm going to try to turn my monitor amp down and run the monitor vol. fader on max to see if the dirstortions are audible.

Rusty K
 
Rusty K said:
The rosie scenario from my last post is not quite right yet. I'm still not able to squeeze the waveform as much as I'd like on certain songs. The same article quoted above stated that with a good limiter I should be able to increase the level by 6db without noticing much but I haven't achieved that yet...still working on it though.
Click to expand...
It totally, completly, unwaveringly, and indisputibly depends entirely on the quality and density of the content of the music being processed. Don't get fixated on numbers. That 6dB figure is meaningless without being discussed within the context of a particular recording. Push the song as hard as you can until the trade off between quality and volume becomes too much for your tastes. Then stop.

If you wind up at (just sample numbers here, don't take them as gospel) -12dBRMS instead of -10dBRMS, nobody is going notice or care. If, however, you sacrifice listening ease or pleasure to push it that extra couple of lousy dBs, people will both notice and care.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen,

The only thing I'm fixated on is how the "majors" are able to squeeze a wav right up to 0db without distortions and while maintaining fidelity. If I find that my limitation is the quality of my rig then I'll live with it or get better "stuff". Right now from what I'm reading there is no reason I can't achieve similar results except for the limits of my knowledge which I'm working on.

Ok so....if I'm able to increase the overall level 6db (or whatever) by using a limiter my understanding is that this is a flattening of the wave, bringing the peaks down so the whole level can go up. I'm not seeing this result in my waveform. The peaks still look much the same as before applying around a
-6db limit.

Rusty K
 
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