A/D Converters, can you actually hear any difference?

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Marcellovalerio

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Is there anyone here with experience that has had the chance to A/B test any A/D converters and soundcards? Could you describe the difference in sound....are we talking a "tiny inch" or "my mom can hear it" ?
 
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Not sure. Audio in general is pretty subjective. I can hear it, but... I couldn't decribe exactly what's going on in concrete terms.

Here are my experience's, though.

1) Macke VLZ's into Digidesign 888/24's vs. Art Tube MP's into Apogee AD.

OK, the VLZ's and MP's are horrid pres, BUT the Apogee tracks are very noticeably more detailed. Like a layer of dust was wiped off a window. The Apogee is also the sytem clock- and the whole rig sounds like poo poo when it gets switched off and the system (Pro Tools Mix:24 Plus) reverts to its internal clock.

2) Digi 002 onboard convertors vs. ADAT LX-20 convertors. Both fed by preamps from a Soundtracs SOLO MIDI or a Tascam M520.

Less obvious difference, but what is an obvious difference is when I slave the Digi 002 clock to the ADAT! Again, a layer of dust comes off what I thought was a clear window of sound. I couldn't believe it and wasn't expecting it, but its true.

3) RNP into Digi 002 line inputs and convertors vs. into a TC finalizer.

Wow. The RNP is a pretty glossy preamp and sounds good through anything, but through the Finalizer it takes on an even larger, clearer sound.

Enough for your mom to hear? Probably not. Enough to make a noticealbe difference when magnified by all the tracks in your session? Definately.

What seems to be the biggest difference for me is when I clock may system to a good clock. The Finalizer was my clock before it broke and even improved the playback of sessions recorded to the Digi 002's internal clock. When it broke I was surprised to find the ADAY clock had a similar effect. Not night and day differences, but I like using my gear to its greatest potential and I was amazed at the easily noticeable clarity of stereo field and... realness... that was offered by useing the external clocks.

Every little bit helps.

Take care,
Chris
 
Hm. Thank You!
If my mom can't hear a difference...

Just to have one thing clear though...Pre-Amp's and Mic's are more important than your A/D conversion (unless it's TOTALLY CRAP)? Would most people agree to that?
 
i will agree that preamps and mics are in the "obvious difference" field...from there on, it's pretty tough to tell...upgrading cabling, converters, etc...that's where it starts to not be so noticable i guess.. unless you were recording through a soundblaster card or something like that. still, if you get to know your gear pretty well and record a lot, you'll notice a difference once you upgrade the conversion i think.

but yeah, preamps and mics will have the wow factor most of the time, especially if it's a big upgrade.
 
Yet another seconding of the opinion that mics & preamps are more important. I have the 3D audio cd (www.3daudioinc.com) that compares a number of different A/D converters. There is a difference to be heard, if you are on very good speakers & a very good amp. I suspect there would be more difference that could be heard if it was a 'super' cd versus the regular cd. Definitely nothing your mother would notice. And if you are playing it on MP3, or through average inexpensive homeowner equipment, I don't think you would hear any difference.

Not that I am knocking the good A/D converters out there. I have an apogee rosetta and it does give a little more detail. For what I am doing, I think its overkill, which is why I plan on selling it.
 
Clarity

I personally can hear a difference. Then again, I usually hear the difference between 44.1/16 vs. 48/24. :)

When I first A/B'd converters back in 1999, the M-Audio Delta 1010 seemed to capture more clarity than the MOTU's converters. At first I thought it could've been just those two I A/B'd at the store, but then a friend brought over his and we came to the same conclusion.

I recently upgraded to the RME Fireface 800 which has awesome converters, although not as clear as Apogee's or Lynx, blew away all the other competition.

Do your own comparisons if you can and find the best converters for your needs.

Cheers, Rez
 
I can hear differences between my Lucid converters and the stock converters on my Masterlink, and the ADAT XT20. They are subtle, but not "unobvious"...

And as far as the importance of the converters - they are HUGELY important. With digital recording - the converters are THE thing.... if you stick a Neumann U87/w Groove Tubes ViPre in front of a poor converter, it will sound like shit. So good converters are a must.
 
Marcellovalerio said:
Just to have one thing clear though...Pre-Amp's and Mic's are more important than your A/D conversion (unless it's TOTALLY CRAP)? Would most people agree to that?
Click to expand...

I don't agree with that, it's all equally important. Also, I do mostly synth/sampler based music and very rarely even need to record an acoustic instrument. So for me converters are generally more important. Or I should say more important more often. That said, I've still spent a lot of money on a great preamp and some good mics for when I need them.

In my experience you can hear the difference between good converters and bad. You can also hear the difference between a good converter and another good converter. But that becomes more of a flavor thing, less of a quality difference. I think the difference between converters also becomes more apparent when you stack tracks. Most people do A/B comparisons between one track versus another track, and that doesn't always show the differences well. Same goes for mics and preamps, actually.
 
Another vote for "converters are more important". Without good coverters, as Bear said, you won't really appreciate the upgraded pres/mics nearly as much. I would say that upgrading my converters made the biggest difference to my sound (as far as hardware goes).
 
I think we've come to a point where technological advances in digital recording in general over the last four-five years or so has gotten to where even mildly expensive prosumer sound cards and converters should be more than adequate for even some of the most demanding/serious of projects. The biggest difference is between what was being done 6 years ago versus what is being done now, within the same price bracket. Example: You could pick up an EMU soundcard from Guitar Center for 200 bucks that will probably rival the sound quality of an Apogee Rosetta from 6 years ago ... but would likely fall a few inches short of today's Apogees.

So yea, I do think it's more like inches, but then keep in mind that an inch here and an inch there will eventually add up to a foot here and a foot there. The theory goes something like: an inch better mic running in to an inch better pre running in to an inch better converter might compose a difference your Mom could hear. Assuming your Mom has decent ears.
 
I have to throw in a word about DA (as opposed to AD) converters. IMHO these are equally important although they are sometimes treated like the ugly stepchild in the digital process. The AD coverter affects the input quality but the DA affects what you hear during mixing and, thus, the kinds of decisions you make during that process. The DA converter is also crucial if you mixdown outside the box (computer) using a console or an external recorder. Over the last several months I had the chance to play with DA converters in three different boxes: an older MOTU 828, a brand new Metric Halo ULN-2 firewire interface, and a Lucid 9624 DA. As one might expect, the Metric Halo and the Lucid fared better. But what really shocked me was how my mixing decisions changed depending on which converter was used. Little things (like one or two db at 200Hz or subtle changes in reverb settings) really jumped out on the newer/better DA converters and the nature of my mixes changed. There were things that I just couldn't hear on the old MOTU and problems I didn't address because I didn't know they existed. Of course, room acoustics, room treatments, monitors, and trained ears help. But from my experience, good DA converters don't just sound good. They change specific choices in mixing. This may seem self evident but I guess I needed to be hit with a shovel before it became clear to me. End of two cents.
 
Good? Yes. Great? No.

Good convertors are almost the epitome of the law of diminishing returns. $2000 for a difference my mom can't hear?! Yes. Because *I* can hear it and I need to be confident that my products are going to represent the best I can hear and do.

That's a price point that is just beyond most home recordists (including me.) But I do know the difference it makes and I do experiements to see which convertors and clocks I have sound the best while prowling bargain bins for good prices on used stuff.

The 828 is fine. Its not the best, but for all the features it offers at its price point one wouldn't expect it to be.

Take care,
Chris
 
Blue Bear Sound said:
...if you stick a Neumann U87/w Groove Tubes ViPre in front of a poor converter, it will sound like shit.
Click to expand...

What is a poor converter, though? A soundblaster? If so, you're probably right. If you're talking about any standard "pro-sumer" audio card available these days (MOTU, etc.), its not going to sound like "shit". A Lavry Gold will sound better than an M-Audio converter, but the M-Audio isn't going to sound like "shit". Even at that level, swapping A/D is going to be much less noticable than swapping mics or pres.
 
nkjanssen said:
What is a poor converter, though? A soundblaster? If so, you're probably right. If you're talking about any standard "pro-sumer" audio card available these days (MOTU, etc.), its not going to sound like "shit". A Lavry Gold will sound better than an M-Audio converter, but the M-Audio isn't going to sound like "shit". Even at that level, swapping A/D is going to be much less noticable than swapping mics or pres.
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On a couple a tracks it will be somewhat noticable. On many tracks it will be OBVIOUS.......

I went from a MOTU 828mkII to an Apogee AD16 - HUGE difference. I didn't think it would make much difference before I did it either, but several people convinced me it would, and the were more than right.

In fact, I use what I call the "wife test". If she can hear an obvious difference, then there is a significant difference. I A/B'd the Apogee with my Rumour converters just going out. She picked the Apogees EASILY.
 
nkjanssen said:
What is a poor converter, though? A soundblaster? If so, you're probably right. If you're talking about any standard "pro-sumer" audio card available these days (MOTU, etc.), its not going to sound like "shit". A Lavry Gold will sound better than an M-Audio converter, but the M-Audio isn't going to sound like "shit". Even at that level, swapping A/D is going to be much less noticable than swapping mics or pres.
Click to expand...

I disagree with the last statement - I have heard marked differences between converters that have been greater (IMHO) than between mics or pres. (There are of course many cases where the converse will be true). I observed this first hand when I went through a series of converters, believing that they should not make that big a difference. I discovered to my financial dismay that they do.

Now, I will agree that converters that Bear calls "poor" may be "acceptable" to you, it is, after all, a subjective qualification. Personally, I would characterize some of the pro-sumer converters as poor. Usable, yes to some. Poor to me (not that that should matter to anyone :)

Once again.,though, it all boils down to what you are willing to live with and what sounds good to you. This is all my opinion, worth what you paid for it :)
 
When judging converters, I generally don't listen to the opinions of people who haven't tested them side-by-side ... and using sound testing methodology that incorporates double-blind comparisons.

Without it, subjective judgements and opinions are useless, because our expectations play such a large role in what we hear. Especially when you're talking about something as subtle as converter differences. Using proper comparison methods, if you blindly pick a given sample out more than 60% of the time, then there's probably a difference.
.
 
NL5 said:
I went from a MOTU 828mkII to an Apogee AD16 - HUGE difference.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying there isn't a difference. I'm saying that a U87 through a Groove Tubes ViPre into the MOTU isn't going to sound like "shit". That's a fair bit of overstatement.

Put it this way, which signal chain would you rather have:

1) U87 into Groove Tubes ViPre into MOTU 828; or

2) Behringer B1 into ART Tube MP into Lavry Gold converters.

If the converters make a bigger difference than the mic or pre, I think you'd chose the second.

I always get a kick out of guys who worry about upgrading their converters, when all they own are Behringer and Peavy mics, or guys who worry about upgrading their mics when they don't pay any attention to placement or to tuning the drums or to getting a decent sounding guitar amp, or, best of all, guys who figure they need some kind of analog summing device, when they have shitty mics, poor source material, bad pres *and* bad converters. That's the point I'm trying to make.
 
chessrock said:
When judging converters, I generally don't listen to the opinions of people who haven't tested them side-by-side ... and using sound testing methodology that incorporates double-blind comparisons.

Without it, subjective judgements and opinions are useless, because our expectations play such a large role in what we hear. Especially when you're talking about something as subtle as converter differences. Using proper comparison methods, if you blindly pick a given sample out more than 60% of the time, then there's probably a difference.
.
Click to expand...

Side by side testing is essential, as is not caring which converter sounds better. Or, perhaps I should say not caring or having expectations about how the converter will sound.

I have two excellent converters here, the UA 2192, and the Benchmark Media DAC-1. I personally don't care which sounds better as I have already paid for both, so that element has been taken away. I can listen to both converters and just make obkective observations about their tonal qualities. And these two converters do sound different, although they are both superb.
 
SonicAlbert said:
Side by side testing is essential, as is not caring which converter sounds better. Or, perhaps I should say not caring or having expectations about how the converter will sound.
Click to expand...


If you were to test either of them against, say, an EMU or a Lynx Soundcard that sells for between $200-600 ... would you still not care? :D

.
 
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