6802 Mods

  • Thread starter Thread starter Marik
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Marik

Marik

Pro Microphone Design
OK,

As some of you know the deal was I offered to the first interested person to install a PK47 and do mods for free in exchange to being able to test the PK47, I was interested in and wanted to compare to my mint original PVC M7.
Although not identical, those capsules are quite similar and have in common a single backplate construction, which is very different from K67/87 type.

Today the mic has arrived, and although I did not have much chance to play with it, just wanted to post some first impressions, if somebody is interested.

The thing sure looks impressive--heavy PSU made of thick sheetmetal, good sized mic itself. 24 karat gold grill is sure not my favorite, but what's the heck.
I have a bad habit of opening things before I even tried them out, so that one was not an exception.

Since I got the mic with the tube already swapped, and original one was not marked it is hard to say which tube originally was intended to work with this circuit, without seeing its internal structure. The tube socket is fastened with a rubber ring, and another end is damped with another rubber thingie--nice solution, as it reduces tube microphonics.
Another surprise--the transformer was actually a U-core type--something not very often you see in Chinese tube mics. The core sure looks on a smallish side, but who knows? Before any measurements are done it is hard to say.

I did not see any cheapo ceramic caps stuff. The caps look like nice films. The electrolitic C6, which is in signal path, as well as shunting cathode resistor cap will definitely need to be replaced for better quality, but this is later.

The grid resistor is actually a very clever for a tube circuit 150M value, as opposed to generic 1G, most of the manufacturers through into that part without thinking.

The B+ is 166V so there is a lot of space of playing with voltages and anode resistor values.

Things I did not like. The most noticable--the tube is located "upside down", where the grid is connected to the capsule blocking capacitor through a pretty long piece of wire--not good for a number of reasons. We don't want to through into highZ part of the circuit anything that long, so even moisture in air would work as a conductor, increasing noise. Also, it introduces stray capacitance, which loads the capsule signal, as well as degrades sonic qualities.
The most obvious way of fixing it is to mechanically flip it... but not yet, as later there might be some other solutions.

Capsule bias sits @80V. There is nothing wrong with it... maybe, but looking at the transformer size something is telling me the signal is pretty healthy and we might hit the transformer little too hard.

The main thing--the heater sits @6.54V!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: Bad, very bad, VERY VERY BAD!!! The rating is 6.3V, so we are killing our poor tube in a matter of months. This should be fixed the very first thing.

I had a listen to it for a few minutes. Unfortunately, at this point I cannot say much. For last month my ears are very much got used to a ribbon sound, so I need a couple days to get back on track and get re-adjusted.

In any case, the capsule should arrive next week, so the whole fun has not even started quite yet...

So stay tuned, Gentlemen
 
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Sweeet :D

The GE tube is not stock - I forgot I did that. It came with a completely unmarked tube, presumably a 12AT7, that had that brittle, shrill sound that I've come to associate with cheap chinese tubes (at least the factories have achieved consistency :) ). To me, the old GE tube made a big improvement - more full and mellow sound. To find out that it's in grave danger :eek::eek: - thank goodness you're looking at it, Marik :cool:

If need be, I can send the stock tube (after I find it - I don't think I tossed it), so that you can see a totally stock mic. I really did forget - weird.
 
OK,

As some of you know the deal was I offered to the first interested person to install a PK47 and do mods for free in exchange to being able to test the PK47, I was interested in and wanted to compare to my mint original PVC M7.
Although not identical, those capsules are quite similar and have in common a single backplate construction, which is very different from K67/87 type.

Today the mic has arrived, and although I did not have much chance to play with it, just wanted to post some first impressions, if somebody is interested.

The thing sure looks impressive--heavy PSU made of thick sheetmetal, good sized mic itself. 24 karat gold grill is sure not my favorite, but what's the heck.
I have a bad habit of opening things before I even tried them out, so that one was not an exception.

Man! I should say, I was impressed! The very first thing--the tube was NOS 12AT7 GE--wow. The tube socket is fastened with a rubber ring, and another end is damped with another rubber thingie--nice solution, as it reduces tube microphonics.
Another surprise--the transformer was actually a U-core type--something not very often you see in Chinese tube mics. The core sure looks on a smallish side, but who knows? Before any measurements are done it is hard to say.

I did not see any ceramic caps stuff. The caps look like nice films. The electrolitic C6, which is in signal path, as well as shunting cathode resistot cap will definitely need to be replaced.

The grid resistor is actually a very clever for a tube circuit 150M value, instead of generic 1G, most of the manufacturers through into there without thinking.

The B+ is 166V so there is a lot of space of playing with voltages and anode resistor.

Things I did not like. The most noticable--the tube is located "upside down", where the grid is connected to the capsule blocking capacitor through a pretty long piece of wire--not good for a number of reasons. We don't want to through into highZ part of the circuit anything that long, so even moisture in air would work as a conductor, increasing noise. Also, it introduces stray capacitance, which loads the capsule signal, as well as degrades sonic qualities.
The most obvious way of fixing it is to mechanically flip it... but not yet, as later there might be some other solutions.

Capsule bias sits @80V. There is nothing wrong with it... maybe, but looking at the transformer size something is telling me the signal is pretty healthy and we might hit the transformer little too hard.

The main thing--the heater sits @6.54V!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: Bad, very bad, VERY VERY BAD!!! We are killing our poor tube in a matter of months. This should be fixed the very first thing.

I had a listen to it for a few minutes. Unfortunately, at this point I cannot say much. For last month my ears are very much got used to a ribbon sound, so I need a couple days to get back on track and get re-adjusted.

In any case, the capsule should arrive next week, so the whole fun has not started quite yet...

So stay tuned, Gentlemen

Would you mind if I post this on PSW ?
 
Hey Chance,

No problem, once I edit out the tube part, as out of context it can be misleading.

EDIT: OK, I changed the tube part, as well as added some little details. You can go ahead and post it.
 
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The main thing--the heater sits @6.54V!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: Bad, very bad, VERY VERY BAD!!! The rating is 6.3V, so we are killing our poor tube in a matter of months. This should be fixed the very first thing.

Wow, you're even anal about tolerances than I am. :D

A 5% tolerance is considered a conservative assumption for tubes that don't have a tolerance rating, and it isn't uncommon to see tubes with tolerance ratings as high as 10%. Note that 6.3V +/- 5% tolerance is from 5.98V to 6.61V.

I'm not saying it's not a good idea to run the filament at voltage (or maybe even a little voltage starved) as far as tube life is concerned, but I certainly wouldn't panic over a 3.8% overage. It certainly isn't earth shattering.
 
Thanks Marik for the post. I'm really interested in this mic if it is as good as the T3, even if a few mods are required.

Some of the tech info was lost on me at this point, but I'm learning.

Earl
 
Wow, you're even anal about tolerances than I am. :D

A 5% tolerance is considered a conservative assumption for tubes that don't have a tolerance rating, and it isn't uncommon to see tubes with tolerance ratings as high as 10%. Note that 6.3V +/- 5% tolerance is from 5.98V to 6.61V.

I'm not saying it's not a good idea to run the filament at voltage (or maybe even a little voltage starved) as far as tube life is concerned, but I certainly wouldn't panic over a 3.8% overage. It certainly isn't earth shattering.

Thank you for your comment.
The tube tolerances (esp. from manufacturer to manucaturer) can be as large as 20% and even more.
The problem is you can push operating point close to max. and the tube can still feel happy and serve you for years and years. The temperature of the filament (which directly depends on the voltage) however, is much more crucial for tube life and depending on the purity of oxide cathodes will be a major factor in the tube loosing emission.
Decreased by 10% filament voltage of small tubes will significantly prolong the tube's life and in some cases can help to linearize the tube and decrease its noise.

It might be very well that you are right concerning panicing, however after killing myself a nice NOS 12UT7 in half a year and then realizing there was about 6.6V on the heater I am much more conservative about it. I even would be happy to admit that was an unrelated issue.

Best, M
 
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Some updates.

Tonight for the first time I took out the tube. It exposed a PCB full of soldering flux residue all over the board--not good. As we have already talked before--a good source for noise if left in a highZ section. Besides... it just doesn't look neat :mad:. No bigie though for a DIYer.

Today my goal was to measure transformer. I have to say, my attempt failed miserably. My trusty GenRad 1650A bridge with which I measured hundreds of transformers (including my own prototypes :eek:), inductors, etc., just refused to do the job. I would go with a Q all the way down to zero and it still would not get into resonance.
I don't like it. Might need to wait until uncle CJ advises.

The secondary winding is not interleaved and wounded on top of the primary. Another sign of a cheap labor--a couple of adjuncted laminations going the same direction :rolleyes:.

In any case, the transformer ratio is 8.3:1. It makes me think it was indeed intended rather for 12at7 than 6072, so if we assume in those condition the tube plate resistance is 12K, so we would get an output impedance about 173 Ohm.

Looking at this transformer, as well as listening to obvious lack of a healthy LF content even with GE 12AT7, the only thought I had was that in order to somehow make it work with the stock transformer we'd need some low mu tube, with low plate resistance and then go overdamped.

For sake of quick setup I choosed 12AU7--the only low mu brother in the family. Never ever I tried this tube in a mic so that might be interesting.
With my NOS Mullard and stock circuit values the bias point fell at about 0.8 ma which looks just about right for the start.

Immediately I felt the bottom end has tightened up and things start going in the right direction. The top end still has some fuzz--something that will need to be taken care later, but generic 32mm capsule actually start sounding decent.

Oh yeah, and the main thing is not to get carried away and remember that this particular mic is intended to be mated with PK47.

BTW Antichef, we completely forgot one thing. What's your budget? Would we have some $$$ left for a new transformer, or should we stay with the stock one?

Best, M
 
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We can get a new transformer - they're in the same general neighborhood or lower than the capsule, right?

edit: what I meant to say was, you name it, you got it :D :D :D
 
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Hi guys,
Could you please give more specific info here on the type of mic that is being augmented.
Thanks,
Charles
 
maybe the church microphone circuit with that transformer ratio and adjusting the B+
 
maybe the church microphone circuit with that transformer ratio and adjusting the B+

Considering stock transformer's low primary inductance, using it with 12AT7 (instead of 6072, or 5751 :eek:) might be one of the solutions. The NFB will reduce tube impedance and will definitely clear things and tighten up LF. I'd expect it sound clean, neutral, and extended, with some hints of compression as a NFB consequence. I am not sure though, how I feel about NFB in a tube mic... ;). Why would we go tube, then? We could just as well go solid state.

Anyway, before chosing circuit/tube/transformer I need to hear the capsule, first, so everything will compliment each other. Oh, and last but not least I am awaiting for Antichef to write me about what kind of sound he is afer, at all.

If somebody wants to experiment, for now I'd recommend to play with 12AU7.
Also, if you want to check a "Church" type of the sound re-solder red transformer wire to the lower (on PCB) end of R3. Strictly speaking, it would be a mix of Church/Gefell UM57 circuits, with bypassed cathode resistor used in Church, and blocking cap on the hot tap of the transformer from UM57. If you want to check out the Church approach and move that cap to the "cold" end, let me know and I give you instruction.

Please Gentlemen (and of course Ladies, if there are any here), report your findings.

And BTW, if anybody is waiting for the part about "good caps and parts, ends and wistles" it will come last, as my philosophy is a good and right implemented circuit will always sound good, even despite cheap parts. You know, it is like a truly beautiful woman--she will always look beautiful, even without high hills, evening dress, and mascara and lipstick :eek::eek::eek:. Those things are called only to augment beauty, rather than cover... well let's not go there.

Best, M
 
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Oh, and last but not least I am awaiting for Antichef to write me about what kind of sound he is afer, at all.
It's rare that I'm aware enough of my own ignorance that I can feel the sting of it :o (I spend a lot of happy time in that "don't know what you don't know" corner of the chart :D) -- I say see what the capsule has in store, and shoot for something close to a standard application of the capsule, if that makes sense. If there are nuances to be decided beyond that, I'm sort of along for the ride, so to speak, because I don't have enough focused listening experience with these sorts of mics to be meaningful.
 
Considering stock transformer's low primary inductance, using it with 12AT7 (instead of 6072, or 5751 :eek:) might be one of the solutions. The NFB will reduce tube impedance and will definitely clear things and tighten up LF. I'd expect it sound clean, neutral, and extended, with some hints of compression as a NFB consequence. I am not sure though, how I feel about NFB in a tube mic... ;). Why would we go tube, then? We could just as well go solid state.

Anyway, before chosing circuit/tube/transformer I need to hear the capsule, first, so everything will compliment each other. Oh, and last but not least I am awaiting for Antichef to write me about what kind of sound he is afer, at all.

If somebody wants to experiment, for now I'd recommend to play with 12AU7.
Also, if you want to check a "Church" type of the sound re-solder red transformer wire to the lower (on PCB) end of R3. Strictly speaking, it would be a mix of Church/Gefell UM57 circuits, with bypassed cathode resistor used in Church, and blocking cap on the hot tap of the transformer from UM57. If you want to check out the Church approach and move that cap to the "cold" end, let me know and I give you instruction.

Please Gentlemen (and of course Ladies, if there are any here), report your findings.

And BTW, if anybody is waiting for the part about "good caps and parts, ends and wistles" it will come last, as my philosophy is a good and right implemented circuit will always sound good, even despite cheap parts. You know, it is like a truly beautiful woman--she will always look beautiful, even without high hills, evening dress, and mascara and lipstick :eek::eek::eek:. Those things are called only to augment beauty, rather than cover... well let's not go there.

Best, M

My experience so far is that this capsule is quite capable of handling a large amount of low end, almost sub (almost). I think a large high nickel/iron core transformer would be prudent (good flux lines). I used a small one along with this capsule in a modified Nady 1050 and the lows are so big below 50hz I'm thinking of reducing the output cap down to a .47uF 250v.

Also, the highs are a tad more pronounced on the P K47 when compared to the 2 M7 capsules I have. A tad clearer. I don't know if that is a difference between the KK47 and a stock M7, as the ones I have are re-skinned, but that is what I have observed so far.
 
Also, the highs are a tad more pronounced on the P K47 when compared to the 2 M7 capsules I have. A tad clearer. I don't know if that is a difference between the KK47 and a stock M7, as the ones I have are re-skinned, but that is what I have observed so far.

I have an original PVC M7, which has more mellow top than Mylar re-skinned ones.
Although M7 and K47 are very similar, they are not identical. The K47 has a ring, which changes a pressure-gradient, which affects LF response and polar pattern.

It would also be interesting to compare it to my original K67, K87, CK12, and 34mm 797.
Re: stock transformer.
I just got off the phone with Oliver. He told that it is not an unusual case when it is impossible to measure Chinese transformers, which points out to particularly bad lamination used. Normally, for tight budget I'd suggest at least relamming those (looks like 250U size, but don't take me on that) and measure again.
Since Antichef's got some dough to spend on the project, later on we will get some nice trafo. Given his preference of smooth/full body sound, which would be colored to rather suit jazz vocals, immediately the Lundahls are out the picture. The Cinemag's high Ni core also don't look particularly right, so some multichambered stuff from Oliver would be a good choice.

So stay tuned.
 
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Just curious -- do we know what the diaphragm of the PK-47 is made out of?

also, it looks like Oliver has some "low profile" versions of the x47 type transformer - maybe low profile means "smaller"? :)
 
Just curious -- do we know what the diaphragm of the PK-47 is made out of?

also, it looks like Oliver has some "low profile" versions of the x47 type transformer - maybe low profile means "smaller"? :)

It's mylar. Only Gefell does PVC anymore.

The "low profile" one might be smaller, but then again Neumann had two versions of the BV8. The smaller one was/is still a fairly big transformer.
 
i got the bv314 and it was far too big to fit in this mic comfortably. i'm going to send it back and await your findings.
 
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