64 bit v. 32 bit chips

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Treeline

Treeline

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Newbie question -

To what extent does a 64 bit Athlon CPU @ 1.8 gHz trump a P4 @ 3 gHz? Assume both running a 800 mHz front bus and feeding 1 G RAM, XP home, no weird complications.

Is the difference really to be found in the design of the motherboards or does the chip itself really rule the performance?

Thanx...
 
Well...

As the processors go the AMD 64 series runs at a 1600mhz bus and higher. Hypothetically that means your system should run smoother, but I don't think it makes as big a difference as some people think. The reality is that comparing the processors is comparing Coke and Pepsi. Everyone has a favorite, eitherway it's just cola. If you purchase a high-end chip, you have a high-end chip. Wahooooooo.

-J
 
Good. Now I can get some work done instead of overanalyzing this stuff. :D I wish I was retired and rich.



Thanks for the quick response.
 
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treeline. well not exactly. as a computer engr i would take an amd 64 anyday. there is a simple no b/s test. just run up enough tracks and plug ins on both amd and intel and judge for yourself which puffs out first.
also due to the amd architecture people are reporting some very nice low latency figures using it. teacher posted his stats if i remember a week ago using a 64. very impressive. but if you already have the intel....
just get tracking....and wait for the next round of processor wars.
 
Doesn't the software, even the OS, need to be rewritten or at least recompiled or optimized, to take advantage of 64-bit processors?
 
eddie. NO !! thats a red herring.
just read teachers post a while back on the great plug in and track counts he is getting with a 64. also read and learn on nuendo.com.
just search the threads for amd 64 on nuendo site.
basically you cant beat processor power.
 
What I have right now is a PIII 600 / W98SE that chokes at even the mention of 24 bit. I upgraded the interface and am now stuck with 24 bit tracks on my DPS that sound absolutely beautiful from the DPS outputs but click and stutter all over hell and back when I try to import anything, even analog! My Dell is calving, pure and simple, just like you guys told me it would a few months back. So here's what I'm looking at, and then I have to find a way to pay for it without being made to sleep in the garage this winter.

I have 2 good IDE drives, a good dual video card (no fan), a working IDE CD/R burner, monitors and a Delta 66. That's 1 PCI card, 1 AGP card.

Here's the lineup, all from Newegg:

Shuttle XPC barebone for socket 939 Athlon 64, Model SN95G5
(includes quiet power supply and fire wire capable motherboard, 2 expansion slots: 1 PCI & 1 AGP; IDE and SATA compatible)

AMD Athlon 64 bit 3000+ 1.8G CPU

Corsair RAM, 1 gig

XP Home

Total = $ 785 shipped.


That will let me sell my AKAI DPS16 tracker (+/- $500) and record on location directly from the aux buss on my Mackie mixer.

Phase II would involve springing for the Mackie Onyx 1640 w/ fire wire - it's $1700, but the two would be a killer combination; record 16 simultaneous tracks...

(sigh)


Anyway, whaddaya think?
 
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yup. p3 is old.
treeline - do you need plug in power ?
whats the max traks /plug ins you want to run ?
by the way brand new full 64 configs including drives are cheap in my area. hers some prices to compare..
canadasys.com
 
manning1 said:
yup. p3 is old.
treeline - do you need plug in power ?
whats the max traks /plug ins you want to run ?
by the way brand new full 64 configs including drives are cheap in my area. hers some prices to compare..
canadasys.com
Click to expand...

I track live performances; sometimes recording up to eight tracks at once. it's usually in connection with live sound.

I have very basic outboard gear, so it's pretty much all soft effects these days. I don't need / don't know what to do with anything too wild, but at 16 bits my system was resourcing out on me at 11 or 12 tracks and any kind of individual plug ins per track made it much worse - I would end up working with sub mixes on my AKAI DPS and then I'd move a stereo mix to my gamer card by S/PDIF. I'd finesse a bit, but end up with five or six tracks, mixdown again to stereo. Not great, lots of unnecessary moving around.

So far I'm using n-track, which has done pretty well by me. There might be a problem with the 24 bit upgrade, though. I've never been able to test it because when I went to 24 bit, I had to change cards (to a Delta 66, newest drivers I could find) there were too many changes at once to really get a handle on what was going on.

The Dell / n-track would pause every few seconds when importing tracks from the DPS, whether they were digital OR analog tracks. That's why I figured it must be the Dell pooping out on me.

So long answer to short question - as many as I can manage. I'd like to be able to pull 12 or 16 simultaneous live tracks - full drum kit, bass, acoustic guitar, acoustic mandolin, pedal steel, two electrics, four vocals. Right now I do submixes with one or two mixers and cram it all down to eight, four or even two tracks while I run a mono (and sometimes stereo) mix for live sound. Keeps me busy, but I'd really like to isolate live tracks as much as I can. And then there are the overdub possibilities. I don't know - maybe 48?

Next month I'm tracking three opera performances (my daughter is the lead in the operatic version of Amahl and the Night Visitors) - but probably will be using only 6 or 8 mics all told; nearly everything wil be distant. I'd like to get this straightened out by then so I can clear up space on the tracker. :cool:
 
well firstly....be carefull using a pc in live performance. machines DO go down. your requirements are a bit hairy, particularly as you need to record so many live tracks to seperate tracks on the pc at once.
i'm confused.. at the beginning you said 8 live tracks then later 12 or 16.
please clarify. remember - the more live tracks the more expensive the sound solution. if all you needed was to record 8 tracks to seperate tracks on the pc at once then a cheap delta will suffice.
do you want ALL 24 bit ? because this ups the stakes a bit as well.
its starting to sound that an amd 64 with very fast hard drives might be what you need.
 
It looks like the system you quoted only has 1 PCI slot? If so, look around more. You should have at least 5.
 
Ya, software does have to be recompiled to take full advantage of the 64 registers. But the cpu is likely plumbed with twice the bandwidth so there's going to be lot's of dividends, even running 32 bit code. And I"m sure it uses the extra beef whenever it can.
One of the highlites for the 64 bit athlon that should appeal to audio enthusiasts is the onboard memory controller/chip/whatever. In theory it should reduce latency, that may be one reason for observed benefits running 32 bit code. In practice I haven't read any DAW reviews on the 64 bit systems, but am anxious to pick one up myself once I'm reasonably confident it won't be a step back for some quirky reason.
 
Actually, I only need one available slot at this stage because the eventual planned front end would be a Mackie Onyx mixer delivering 16 channels of fire wire; the Shuttle has a fire wire port right on the motherboard. So ultimately I would not require even one PCI slot.

The Shuttle has one real advantage in doing on location recording: It's half the size of a conventional tower. You can put a handle right on top and carry like a lunch box. Pic below.

My video uses one other slot, which is AGP. That's it for slots.

Sorry I wasn't clear about tracking as my thoughts were moving faster than my fingers. Or the other way around.

Anyway, right now my front end is an AKAI DPS 16 multitracking recorder; a very clean dedicated unit used in conjunction with a live mixer.

In the past I have sent a stereo digital signal from the DPS16 to my SBLive sound card; the Delta 66 will also accept the same thing plus four analog signals.

The DPS16 will let me track at once any combination of up to 8 analog feeds from my live mixer (presently a Mackie CFX12), at 16 or 24 bit, 44.1 - 48 mHz, without reducing any resources. I've been using it to record a local rockabilly band when I do their live sound.

I'd like to be able to take that whole capability to the next level - skip the intermediate step - straight from the mixer to the computer. Probably the most stable tracking combination would end up being 24/44.1 or 24/48 until I upgrade the mixer.

The eventual mixer upgrade would give me fire wire from 16 Onyx preamps right to the Shuttle motherboard - bypass the soundcard. That's why I want horsepower. It would also be a good time for me to move up the food chain to learn Cubase.

Anyway, that's the plan. Once I have a reliable 16 channel front end as wel as horses under the hood, I'll be busy for the near term and can begin to do some subtle live tracking I've been itching to get into.
 
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doug. thou speakest the truth.

treeline. just make sure that firewire chip in the shuttle is compatible with whatever you plan in the future as a firewire sound solution. ....you know the old saying...the best laid plans...etc
for some firewire is working fine, but there have been issues.
also check out RME firewire solutions. you might find them interesting.
 
I've heard that RME is pretty astounding stuff. JGourd has an RME setup and likes it a lot.
 
there are many firewire sound solutions coming out treeline.
yes rme have a good rep. but pricey.
i would seriously consider more pci slots just in case firewire were to screw up at some point, and you needed to put in a pci sound card but found the one slot wasnt working properly for some reason.
murphys law you know !!
 
Also, how are you going to hear things back from the computer? Is the firewire two way? or is the Onyx only setup to output signals out the firewire port? You can't use the onboard audio in Cubase unless you change the drivers each time first. Mostly, i wanted to make you aware of the single PCI card slot. The problem I see there is that it GREATLY minimizes your ability to expand later should you need to. Your call though. If size really is the issue, than a laptop with external hard drives seems the most logical route to me. Also, find out what kind of thermal problems may or may not be had in a tower of that size.
 
The initial setup using the Delta 66 gives lots of good monitor options.

The eventual setup using the Onyx board / firewire does include two way firewire, allowing a monitor return to the board. I believe it's 16 in, 2 out. The Delta 66 card could also remain, giving me 4 more outputs.

The reason the single PCI slot is making sense to me is that all the 24/96 converters are in the Mackie board - it IS the front end. The computer is providing the processing horsepower - no soundcard involved. If you think of the unit as a dedicated DAW, expansion becomes less of an issue, as the whole thing would work as a piece.

The only time I've used multiple PCI slots is when I tried to make the computer be all things, which this is not going to be. The LAN and Firewire connectors are right to the motherboard, so internet access is enabled.

As far as temperature is concerned, I'm wondering about that myself. I guess all I can say at this point is that this version of the Shuttle box and motherboard was designed for super high end gamer use, which could burn up a poorly cooled system. It's a bit larger than the standard Shuttle and was designed for high intensity processing, which is what I would be asking it to do. So far, I've seen one review on the Newegg site by a builder who used it with a Delta 1010 and he raved about it. It's an unknown; we'll see.

This is good chewy stuff to be thinking about. I really appreciate all the input!
 
Personally, I always think about expansion now. 8 years ago my studio started with an 8 channel mixer and an 8 channel reel to reel. Now, I am moving to a custom built 1500 square foot building, purchasing a 9 1/2 foot long console with 100+ inputs, and moving to 52 simulataneous ins and 52 outs. 8 years ago I could have never imagined. What I have learned is to buy the right thing once and make sure it has room to grow with you. What happens if you decide on another souncard later instead of the Onyx? And then maybe want to add a UAD or Powercore card? My current tower is regular sized, and undoubtedly weighs more, but didn't cost me too much more than the one you are looking at. Not only that but they offer a $25 carrying strap that allows me to carry it with either a handle or the included shoulder strap. As it is right now, just my sound card takes two PCI slots. It actually only uses 1, but there is a daughter board that covers a second slot up. I am not saying "Don't buy that Shuttle system", but am purely trying to point out those things that I immediately saw as a trouble spot, at least concerning the way that I like to work. For me, expansion is a MUST. I am done "re-buying" gear because I got impatient and bought something that wouldn't grow with me.
 
I think you're right - it's the wisest strategy I can think of. But in this case, I need portability - or enough of it so I can bring the rig to locations from time to time. That requires a compromise that gives me more than a laptop ever would. So in this case, the portability involves a specialty case, power supply and motherboard, designed as a unit.

If I need to expand, the cost of the compromise would be a standard case - ($ 50), a quiet or silent power supply ($100) and an ASUS socket 939 motherboard (Presently $ 130). At today's prices, it seems to be about a $280.00 gamble (plus the fuss of moving drives over). I think I'll get more value than that from this configuration in the near term, so the risk is OK.
 
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