60's sound...

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lazy72

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hey,
this may have been asked before, but i have some specific questions if someone has the time. my band has a kinks/shins/beatles kinda sound live....60's influenced pop. i have a br8, behringer 6 mixer, alesis nanocompressor, bunch of sm57's, an oktava condenser, and a small room(on a budget!). now that you're done laughing, can anyone give me some tips on how to make digital equipment sound like those old recordings?

guitar-les paul through 66 bassman head, 2 celestion vintage 12" speakers
bass-EB2 through ampeg svt 350, 4 10" speakers
drums-simple 4 piece ayotte wood hoop kit
female vocals

i've tried stuff, but it ends up sounding "modern".

thanks. i really appreciate it.

lazy72
 
I would use a lot of vintage effects. Use spring reverbs and older analog effects pedals. They are cheap and easy to find in pawn shops. Part of the charm of analog effects is how they degrade the signal in a pleasing way.

You could also use analog tape for different elements to give it a warmer and hissier sound. You could transfer certain tracks to tape and dump then back into the DAW. This works well for drums.

There is another thread around here from last week about some of the same stuff. Also check out Macle's MP3's in the Mixing Clinic. His stuff sounds new but has a very retro feel to it.
 
If you want your stuff to sound vintage the best way in my opinion is to use as much original equipment as possible. Even if that means renting some better guitars such as a Rickenbacker guitar instead of a Les Paul. Borrow some more vintage amps from someone...anyone...thats my opinion
 
small breakthrough

all,

thanks for the suggestions! switched the les paul for a two pick-up silvertone last night(yes, a silvertone!). world of difference. smoother, stringier sound. i also have a bellari tube pre-amp for the mics, but haven't been able to use it because when i send it to the BR8, it clips like crazy, even with the input level down. what am i doing wrong? i'd like to use it, because i know it would warm things up a bit.

basically what these questions are all about is this...the BR8 is a great, easy to use recorder. it's my first piece of recording equipment, and i'm obviously still learning how to use it. but my recordings are way too.....in your face. that's how i'll describe it. those great 60's recordings were soaked in reverb, and sometimes the instruments almost sound like they're coming from next door, with the vocal up front. i can't get that. is spring reverb the answer? i can't afford a big wood room and 20K analog board!

thanks for everyone's help.


lazy72
 
Like everyone else said, equipment can make a difference... but only to a point... Production will make the biggest difference. Listen closely to how the oldies were mixed sonically. Not much oomph in the kick and bass, slap back echo, rare if any double tracking, not much compression..... just a few things to keep in mind. Also, keep in mind that most oldies were mixed and mastered for the freq. response of vinyl.
 
You really need to bypass the BR8's preamps, because they suck. :) Get some adapters and run from your preamp's output to the RCA Line Input on the BR8. It's the only way I remember ever getting past the built in el-cheapo pres.

You might notice on the master effects, there is an LP effect that emulates the sound of old records. You could try using that -- I actually remember really liking that effect. The effect consists of two patches: The Low-fi emulator and the "pops and scratches" that sound like a record needle. I would disable the pops and scratches and just use the "Low-fi" setting. It's sort of a glorified eq that really smoothes out the sound of everything -- makes things sound kind of smooth, fuzzy, and "un-digital."
 
well, start with your drums. you dont want a very clicky bass drum, but more of a rounded tone, am i right?

mic the snare, but i find, when doing modern stuff, i like to use the overheads more. compresing the overheads quite hard can give the drum track a really retro sound, especially when the cymbals are hit and you really hear the compressor working.

get a nice kit, not a DW or sonor, something like an ancient pearl or something. choose a nice snare. in order to recreate a retro sound, its best to use some retro gear, as suggested here.

you may want to pull a fast retro trick by using beatlesy effects such as slapback delay. that can sound really cool sometimes.
 
thanks to all. one last question...

just wanted to say thanks to everyone that took time to post to this thread. i've learned some things and have what i think are some pretty good results.

i have one last question- what's a good vintage spring reverb unit that i should look for? i'm not entirely pleased with the BR8's offering.



thanks,


lazy72
 
spring reverb? hard to find now. you could find digital emulations of them.

they're on most of the modern reverb units. i even saw one on my alesis midiverb. there's a nice one on my lexiconmpx1, so check that out.
 
i am the walrus!

lets say for example ur going for the i am the walrus (beatles) vocal sound (i am in love with it!). its a muffled, slightly distorted sound. u can also use your performing techniques (how u sing and play), to make it sound like this in stead of getting equipement to do it. have your singer sing slightly too loud with her mouth on the mic. that will cause clipping which was origanally a mistake in the ol days but is loved now. (just like tube amps, and how distortion was invented by an unwanted clipping of the volume level). clipping (if u dont know), is when the volume level is at its peak and distorts the sound. u could even try and use a lower budget mic that is slightly muffled or clips easier than a clear, clean good quality mic.

for the guitars, you're all set if u use a tube amp, or even tube simulator if u cant afford the real. mic your amps further away instead of dead on giving it breathing room and it adds reverb.

for the bass, keep it at a lower volume than u would usually put it because bass wasnt a huge sound in the sixties. put a LITTLE crunch on the bass and mic it further away too.

for the drums. use very few mics, because it will eliminate that focused sound and give it more of an open, full, reverberated sound. u hear more resonation that way and plus, in the 60s they would only use like 3 mics for recording drums! try 1 or 2 overheads, a bass drum mic (further away from usual because the bass drum sound in the60s is very subtle and just mixed in, not trying to stick out like speed metal double-bass music). or u could just put 1 mic in the front of the setup to capture the bass and a main open front sound of the set, and 1 over your head (16" above the cymbals) to capture the all around sound of the set. try it and ull be shocked beacause it sounds surprisingly close to that sixties viintage sound.

i know its more difficult, but u should try recording your band all at once. just for the hell of it! because if u can, it'll sound even more like 60s vintage sound , because most of those recordings you're hearing were recorded live in the studio. (things were simpler back then). if u simply MUST record in seperate tracks, add a little reverb to all of your tracks, to give it the sound you're looking for. dont bother doing hiss reduction in the final mix because the 60s sound is more muffled anyways and hissy (records).

Good luck!
Jay, the master of home recording!
ps. sorry about the length, i have a bad habbit of writing long winded answers.
 
recordingmaster=answer man

hey,

thanks for that! that was exactly what i was looking for from the very beginning. i guess i kinda knew some of the stuff, but didn't have the exact details or balls to try it. i just bought the "beatles gear" book, which obviously talks about their instruments, but also details their studio work/tactics. if you haven't got it already, check it out. but anyway, thanks again, and i can't wait to get to my studio tonight and try this stuff out.


lazy72
 
thanks man, that book sounds cool,ill check it out!
i forgot 1 thing to say.........i just read u said u wanted next door sound for the music and the vocals up front sound. try everything i said, but when i said to put reverb on ALL the tracks. i correct myself: try not putting ANY reverb on the vocals, but try the rest i said about the vocals.
having no reverb on the vocals makes it sound like the person is singing right in ur ear if ur wearing headphones, i love it! it sounds almost like george harrisson's verse in A Day In The Life on sgt. peppers. (Woke up, got outta bed, dragged a come across my head...).
have fun and thanx 4 that book!
Jay
 
Hey recording master....
that was Paul McCartney's part of the song... Not George Harrisons...
 
woops!

woops! i got mixed up, guess my A.D.D. took over and zoned me out as usual. good observation tho!
 
First of all, this thread is truly great!

Everyone's been very helpful and right to the point. This is Homerecording.com at its best!

lazy72,
how about trying to mix the stuff in mono? It worked for Brian Wilson :) I do think drums sound the best in mono so even if you wanna have a stereo image you could still mix the drums in mono, using on of the the techniques RecordingMaster suggested.

And why don't you try to run the final mix thru your bassman for some added feel? Use the knobs for some EQing. I've never tried it but who knows, it might work. This, of course, will give you a mono mix.


giggsy
 
This is a great thread!
Have you guys checked out any of the Joe Meek line?
It seems to give my vocals more of a vintage tone.

Chris
 
The mono thing giggsy is talking about could be cool if you are going for a real early 60's thing,or for the later 60's and early 70's stereo stuff,check out some of the panning they did.They might put the whole drum kit on one side an the bass on the other etc.That could be part of the "comin from next door" thing you're talkin' about.


Good luck and have some fun with it!
 
Yeah, I'm a bit puzzled by why they panned stuff like that?
Was it because they had to or because they wanted to?
All the instruments and vocals are in mono and panned hard right or left.

If you listen to "Don't worry baby" with the Beach Boys it's a perfect example.


giggsy
 
i'm back.

i've been doing quite a bit of recording lately because i'm moving out of my studio at the end of the month. moving up north. anyway, here it is....

the br8 has tons of amps, etc. internally. i ran the silvertone direct through the overdrive patch. tweaked the settings, backed the virtual mic placement off quite a bit, added some hall reverb, and panned it very slightly to the left...just enough to give it a spot, but not enough to over-stereo the instrument mix.

i ran the bass direct as well, with no internal amp whatsoever. no eq either! backed it off in the mix so you could feel it, but it wasn't in your face. panned slightly right. not much. added reverb.

instead of close micing the drums like i was used to doing, i used one sm57 on the snare, with the mic's rear pointed at the hihat to minimize bleed. one sm57 about 18" directly centered above me as i played. one sm57 about two feet in front of me pointed slightly down. bass drum mic in front of the front head about six inches, slightly off-axis with the beater. ran all the mics through a small mixer. then went in to the br8 through RCA ins, unpanned mono. this gave me the sound i wanted, which was more of a room sound. it's amazing how the drums sound more like real drums when you do this...instead of over-micing.

i used the bellari tube pre (low gain) and oktava condenser for the vocals. i used an a.m. radio patch with the effect level very low, so when the vocal dynamics fluctuated, the effect came out more. this gave a slight, almost tape-like hiss to the highs. pretty cool.

sorry for the novel, but i thought maybe some of the others that joined this thread would like to see some options for making digital recordings not so.....digital.

thanks again to all.


lazy72

p.s., will try running things through the bassman. i'll try anything once.
 
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