+4dbu versus -10dbv

[pikingrin]

Bear with me, I'm feeling like a novice all over again...

I've got a saffire pro 40 outputting to JBL LSR305 monitors; both work and I can play sounds from any source on my comp. The "issue" I'm having is that the volume seems lower than before. Drastically lower. I've got saffire mix control on the verge of clipping, volume in windows set at max, my monitors (Active) both set at max volume and the volume on the interface at noon. If I would have had these same settings on my old setup (Tascam fw1804 and M-Audio BX8s) the cops would be here telling me to turn it down because they got a complaint from a neighbor 3 miles away. This current setup, for a lack of better words, is an "inside voice" volume. To get any substantial volume I have to almost peg the volume knob on the interface. I'm in a smaller, untreated room (14' x 8' with some variations) so I assumed that it would at least seem louder due to the confinement but I'm probably way off on that. If I flipped the recessed switch on the back of the monitors from -10 to +4 is that going to make a difference in volume or will that just screw up my monitors?

For what it's worth, I read through the small room acoustics sticky last night so I've got a sound treatment plan that I should have done by next weekend; just trying to assess the volume issue at this point. All reference materials are CDs and youtube videos; both are low...

 

[ashcat_lt]

It won't hurt anything, but I'd guess that it would actually make things quieter still, because the speakers will be "expecting" an even hotter input and either attenuate or not add so much gain. What level is the Saffire set at? Is it configurable?

 

[Tadpui]

That's the input sensitivity switch, and for most of your actual recording gear (interfaces, mixers, monitors, etc.), they output and/or expect +4 dB. The -10 setting is for consumer gear, like most computer sound cards and hi-fi systems. So switching your monitors to +4 will actually make them LESS sensitive to the signal that they're receiving. If they were quiet on the -10 setting, they'll be even quieter on the +4 setting.

Does your Saffire have a switch for -10/+4 dB? See if Focusrite's control panel software has a switch for this, or if there's a switch on the unit itself. I'd set it to +4, and your monitors as well.

:edit:
Sorry ashcat, I was typing slowly and simul-posting the same thing you just said

 

[pikingrin]

It won't hurt anything, but I'd guess that it would actually make things quieter still, because the speakers will be "expecting" an even hotter input and either attenuate or not add so much gain. What level is the Saffire set at? Is it configurable?

I've looked around on focusrite's website and online and haven't been able to find the output level of the saffire. I was assuming it was the lower of the two (without knowing the difference outside of the "consumer" and "professional" levels - whatever the hell that means).

 

[pikingrin]

That's the input sensitivity switch, and for most of your actual recording gear (interfaces, mixers, monitors, etc.), they output and/or expect +4 dB. The -10 setting is for consumer gear, like most computer sound cards and hi-fi systems. So switching your monitors to +4 will actually make them LESS sensitive to the signal that they're receiving. If they were quiet on the -10 setting, they'll be even quieter on the +4 setting.

Does your Saffire have a switch for -10/+4 dB? See if Focusrite's control panel software has a switch for this, or if there's a switch on the unit itself. I'd set it to +4, and your monitors as well.

:edit:
Sorry ashcat, I was typing slowly and simul-posting the same thing you just said

I just switched one of the monitors to +4 and it went almost silent; switched back to -10 and it picked volume back up to the same level as the other. So that solves that issue, I guess; saffire pro 40 monitor outs are -10. I can live with the difference in volumes, I suppose; just didn't want to have to push it to the point of clipping to get substantial volume out of. And, when I say substantial I mean it not in the sense that the bass is rattling the windows and pissing the neighbors off, just enough to catch the subtleties that might be less noticeable at lower volumes. Does it really matter? Well, maybe not; I am just OCD about the details I guess.

And, to answer the question of configurability on the saffire... Not that I can find. There's not a physical switch anywhere on the unit and if there is some kind of switch within the mixcontrol panel it's not within the main GUI. I've searched the help menu within mixcontrol with no results as well.

 

[Tadpui]

I've looked around on focusrite's website and online and haven't been able to find the output level of the saffire. I was assuming it was the lower of the two (without knowing the difference outside of the "consumer" and "professional" levels - whatever the hell that means).

Dang, you're right, I can't find anything about it in Focusrite's manuals or specs. I would assume that it's +4 dB, but since they don't specify...you're gonna have to invite Dave and his goddamn multi-meter over to check

 

[pikingrin]

Dang, you're right, I can't find anything about it in Focusrite's manuals or specs. I would assume that it's +4 dB, but since they don't specify...you're gonna have to invite Dave and his goddamn multi-meter over to check

I've been waiting for him to chime in...

Dave has been a huge help though, and I think he might know a little about the mixcontrol if it's the same on the 2i2 that he's running.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Nominal output level 0dBFS = 16dBu, balanced.

Therefore it would put out +4dBu at -12dBFS, 0dBu at -16dBFS.

 

[ecc83]

"Dave has been a huge help though, and I think he might know a little about the mixcontrol if it's the same on the 2i2 that he's running."

If you mean THIS Dave I am deeply hurt! I thought everyone here knew I was not a fan of the 2i2?!

Heh! Probably a typo, I do have an 8i6 but sorry I don't "run" it* and I have not got head around MixControl........However! I have spotted something!

Page 26 of the Saff 40 manual, under Outputs, line 6 " Software controlled attenuator (-20dB) for sensitive monitors......" I have not as yet FOUND the attenuator but if we ALL looks??? Err? We have a tame Focusrite guy that looks in. Simon iirc?

Also, so as to have a benchmark, record a minute or so of pink noise (Audacity does it) at -6dBFS, played back that should give plenty of noise!

As for me testmeter? Fekkin' leads are bit short. Naturally everyone should have one but in this case, if not, pass on a DMM for now and buy a cheap C weighted sound level meter. Then read Massive's Missive on speaker calibration and get on it!

*But I can rig it later if you think it would help?

Dave.

 

[pikingrin]

"Dave has been a huge help though, and I think he might know a little about the mixcontrol if it's the same on the 2i2 that he's running."

If you mean THIS Dave I am deeply hurt! I thought everyone here knew I was not a fan of the 2i2?!

Heh! Probably a typo, I do have an 8i6 but sorry I don't "run" it* and I have not got head around MixControl........However! I have spotted something!

Page 26 of the Saff 40 manual, under Outputs, line 6 " Software controlled attenuator (-20dB) for sensitive monitors......" I have not as yet FOUND the attenuator but if we ALL looks??? Err? We have a tame Focusrite guy that looks in. Simon iirc?

Also, so as to have a benchmark, record a minute or so of pink noise (Audacity does it) at -6dBFS, played back that should give plenty of noise!

As for me testmeter? Fekkin' leads are bit short. Naturally everyone should have one but in this case, if not, pass on a DMM for now and buy a cheap C weighted sound level meter. Then read Massive's Missive on speaker calibration and get on it!

*But I can rig it later if you think it would help?

Dave.

No offense meant, Dave; I could've swore it was you who had posted about the 2i2 in another thread - my head's been boggled all to crap lately so my apologies.

I'll have to check through Cubase and see how I can do the pink noise to give that a shot. If the attenuator is software controlled then it should theoretically be listed within mix control; I will give a look in a bit and see if I can find it.

 

[ecc83]

"No offense meant, Dave; I could've swore it was you who had posted about the 2i2 in another thread - my head's been boggled all to crap lately so my apologies. "

Absolutely none taken! The 2i2 is an excellent interface, I am just a bit sorry it had issues and lacks that I believe were unfortunate "bean counter" shortcomings.

I have trawled that manual and I cannot find that pesky "20dB software attenuator". I did however find, in the Monitoring section page 22, a "dim" button that inserts 18dB.

Last resort, p. 25 there is a factory reset function that sets all levels and routings to out of the box settings, might be the way to go?

Dave.

 

[pikingrin]

"No offense meant, Dave; I could've swore it was you who had posted about the 2i2 in another thread - my head's been boggled all to crap lately so my apologies. "

Absolutely none taken! The 2i2 is an excellent interface, I am just a bit sorry it had issues and lacks that I believe were unfortunate "bean counter" shortcomings.

I have trawled that manual and I cannot find that pesky "20dB software attenuator". I did however find, in the Monitoring section page 22, a "dim" button that inserts 18dB.

Last resort, p. 25 there is a factory reset function that sets all levels and routings to out of the box settings, might be the way to go?

Dave.

I'm going to try the reset later but I'm not sure that it will make a difference; the only thing that I've done to this since I pulled it out of the box is plug all of the cables in. I saw that dim button, too; I tried that last night and it made it a lower volume when engaged.

I'm thinking that it's just the different, smaller monitors. Probably not as high powered as the 8" M-Audios that I had is my best guess. The headphone levels get plenty loud enough to address the subtleties; I may just have to get used to it or possibly get a secondary set of monitors in the future.

 

[ecc83]

Now, don't everybody laugh! But do you have a digital multimeter?

If so generate a tone at say 300Hz and -6dBFS and measure the output voltage to the monitors. This will tell us if the AI is right or the monitors just low in gain.

Dave.

 

[pikingrin]

I do have a mulitmeter, actually. What setting would I use to check the voltages and where should I put the probes to do this? I just got my keyboard set up so I can do 300hz with ease...

By the way, Dave; I've been trying to give you rep but it won't let me...I appreciate all the help, regardless of the stupid rep counter thing.

 

[ashcat_lt]

AC voltage across the cable. Unplug from the speaker end and measure between tip and ring or tip and sleeve.

 

[pikingrin]

AC voltage across the cable. Unplug from the speaker end and measure between tip and ring or tip and sleeve.

I've got a cheapy analog multimeter that I've had as long as I can remember. It has AC settings of 500v, 250v, 50v and 10v. Playing a 300hz test tone at -6 what should the reading be? I tried all combinations of tip/ring, tip/sleeve and ring/sleeve at all 4 settings and the needle didn't move the slightest bit...

If a digital MM will give me more options than the analog then I can grab one, I've always been able to get by with this one though.

 

[ashcat_lt]

-6dbfs would be +10dbu is like 7V peak to peak.

 

[ecc83]

I do have a mulitmeter, actually. What setting would I use to check the voltages and where should I put the probes to do this? I just got my keyboard set up so I can do 300hz with ease...

By the way, Dave; I've been trying to give you rep but it won't let me...I appreciate all the help, regardless of the stupid rep counter thing.

Use the attached MP3, that should be bang on neg6. That analogue meter might not register such a low voltage of 2.45* due to rectifier non-linearity, should be easily readable on the cheapest of digitals tho' .

Rep counts? Did not know of the bloody thing till a few weeks ago, could not give a toss.

*that's "rms". Why pk to pk Ash'?

Dave.

 

[pikingrin]

Use the attached MP3, that should be bang on neg6. That analogue meter might not register such a low voltage of 2.45* due to rectifier non-linearity, should be easily readable on the cheapest of digitals tho' .

Rep counts? Did not know of the bloody thing till a few weeks ago, could not give a toss.

*that's "rms". Why pk to pk Ash'?

Dave.

Awesome, I'll pick up a digital MM on my way home from church in the morning and give this a shot. I should be looking for a reading of 2.45v when I run the mp3?

 

[ecc83]

Awesome, I'll pick up a digital MM on my way home from church in the morning and give this a shot. I should be looking for a reading of 2.45v when I run the mp3?

Yup.

Eh? What sort of Godless place allows shops open that sell such goods on a Sunday???!!

Heh! I jest, I have been a devoted Cathode Follower all my adult life.

Dave.