440 BX chipset- important?

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I've been looking at new CPU's and noticed that 100mhz front side bus PIII's are either rare or not made above 800mhz processor speed. 100 FSB coppermine chips are labeled "E" and 133 chips are "EB."

Now, AFAIK, the 440 bx chipset is not made to run over 100 FSB.

So, if you want a 440 bx chipset, you are limited to 800 mhz unless you don't mind overclocking your AGP slot- which I did fine for a while with a 800 EB, but am now regretting it since I can't get my new 19" monitor to run stable over 60hz.

Am I wrong? Is anyone running a PIII over 800 with a 440 bx? It seems a shame that we can't take advantage of these super fast and now affordable CPU's without sacrificing the venerable 444 bx chipset.

Has some other chipset with 133 FSB ability gained the same respect for recording?
 
I can still order FC-PGA 1000MHz PIII's, 100MHz FSB. So they are available. If your board is slot one, just get a Slotket. Abit makes a good one.

As far as BX alternatives, I've built a few DAW's based on the ASUS CUSL2-C, which is an Intel I815 board. No problems. Like any hardware though, contact the manufacturer of your soundcard in particuliar, and ask them if their are any known issues.
 
ap -

I'm running a 933 MHz PIII on an ABIT BX-133 RAID. You are correct, you have to run this at 133 FSB to get to 933 MHz. 800 MHz is the highest setting available with a 100 FSB.

You are also correct that the AGP ends up overclocked in my configuration, as the only settings on the board for AGP are 1/1 and 2/3 of FSB.

I'm not using an AGP card so I haven't been concerned about this (should I be??). Also, why isn't there a 1/2 speed setting for AGP, which would seem to resolve the problem.

There is a 1/4 speed for PCI which allows it to be set correctly when running the 133 FSB.
 
The reason there is no 1/2 multiplier is that the BX chipset is not supposed to run at 133Mhz. I believe that the 1/4 PCI multiplier might have been added by the manufacturers of the final generation of BX motherboards. The i820 chipset was a miserable failure and even though Intel stopped adding features to the BX chipset, various motherboard manufacturers like Abit and Asus produced BX boards with updated features like 4X AGP and ATA/66. Perhaps the 1/4 multiplier was a result of this, since overclocking the PCI bus would make the 133Mhz FSB BX boards almost useless to the average user. I'm not sure if there are BX boards out there that have a 1/2 AGP multiplier. Shame.

As far as I know, the highest PIII to run on a 100Mhz bus was the 850. Emeric, you sure you can get 1Ghz PIII's at 100Mhz?

I too have heard ok things about i815...no major problems or anything.

Currently I'm interested in AMD processors. The Duron stomps the Celeron so badly it's pathetic, at up to half the price...in fact, it damn near keeps up with the PIII. AMD FINALLY got a good FPU cooking, no more faking it with that 3D Later! crap. They're better overclocers too since they can be unlocked with a graphite pencil. I'm not sure how good the KT133A chipset is, but supposedly almost all the kinks have been worked out. I just ordered an Asus A7V133 and a Duron 750 to upgrade my girlfriend's machine. The A7V133 has all the good features plus built in Promise RAID. Maybe when she's not looking I'll stick my Delta in her upgraded machine and see how well it runs (that sounds naughty)...if everything jives I'm ditching Intel for a while. I'm no fan of AMD after the pathetic K6 series and I'm no fan of VIA due to almost every chipset it's ever produced....but if things have changed, things have changed...a good DAW is more important than brand loyalty. Oh, the 750Mhz Duron cost $45 and should overclock to 900Mhz (without adjusting the bus speed)...I've seen 750's go over 1000Mhz though, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Slackmaster 2000
 
does the i820 chipset affect me - - -doesn't seem to

Slack,



I have a Piii 600eb asus cuc-2000 board with the i820 chipset. What's up with it? I use my set up (with an aaredvark direct pro) and have no problems but i heard there was a recall and tried to get a replacement but the idiots at the computer store were unable to get the replacement board to work with my dual-monitor set-up (they said it was impossible and that i had never had dual monitors running) so in frustration i told them to just give me back my stuff.

Can i still get a replacement from intel? Thanks for whatever you know.


lD
 
I'll have to double-check that. It's on my price sheet... I'll call the supplier and post back. Maybe it's a typo. I hope it isn't, I had hoped to get one more upgrade out of this BX board.
 
Lorddiagram,

I'm pretty sure it's too late to do the exchange. If your system is running, then your system is running...I wouldn't worry about it. If I remember correctly the biggest known problem with the i820 was the MTH which wouldn't correctly identify some memory. I also remember that the RAMBUS implementation was poor and not much faster than SDRAM at 100Mhz. Maybe some other stuff....it's been a while :)

Emeric...I know what you mean. I think I'm going to get a pretested overclocked Celeron at maybe 900Mhz and plunk it into my BE6 to keep my current system alive just a little longer ...then when I outgrow that I'll see what's available...I'm very excited about what AMD's doing (as I mentioned earlier), so I'll see if that pans out. Hey, what's up with the Emeric_2? Lose your old account?

Slackmaster 2000
 
Slack - seems wierd to me that the mobo manufacturer's would implement a 1/4 multiplier for PCI, but not 1/2 for AGP (although, as you say, without a PCI implementation the board would be essentially useless to anyone). However, without an AGP card installed can I assume overclocking the AGP is harmless?

This board also has two on board ATA-100 controllers, along with 2 IDE controllers.

Pretty good stuff for a BX board. Just the AGP issue.
 
A guy at the computer store says he thinks ABIT made a 440BX based mobo that supports 133. I checked their site and can't find it... yet. Maybe it's actually a mobo with a 1/2 AGP multiplier. Of course it may not exist at all.

I did read that the BX6 and BE6(and possibly some others) list this as one of the features of the chipset:

"4. Supports AGP 66/133 MHz (Sideband) 3.3V device"

What's this mean? It sounds good. I notice that my mobo, BE6II, does not list this feature.

www.abit-usa.com/english/index.htm

Dachay2tnr makes a good point. Can you use a PCI card as the sole video card in a BE6II? I've got an open PCI slot that only shares IRQ with the AGP, so if I remove the AGP, at least the IRQ is free. This would be a very simple solution assuming there are no recording sacrifices involved.
 
dachay2tnr - Yes, you can assume that overclocking AGP is harmless if you're not using it. Of course AGP video is more efficient though.

ap - Sideband addressing allows data to be read and written on both sides of the clock tick (basically DDR), thereby *effectively* doubling the bus speed from 66Mhz to 133Mhz, even though the clock itself is still operating at 66Mhz. So you'll see things like 66/133 (sideband) AGP.....it's one of those things that's *technically* incorrect, but for all intents and purposes, very true :) Now when you see a video card listed as "DDR", that simply means that the *onboard* memory is DDR (double data rate, operating on both sides of the tick). All this crap is besides the point and only matters if you're into gaming or other graphics intensive applications.

I think you'll want to stick with AGP here. It's a much more efficient bus compared to PCI which is typically saturated with devices. AGP devices don't have to ask permission to use the bus, because there's only one thing on it!

Slackmaster 2000
 
ap - the Abit BX-133 RAID supports 133 FSB (in fact, I assume that's what the 133 in the part number refers to). http://www.abit-usa.com/english/index.htm

However, as stated there is no multiplier in the BIOS to correctly set the AGP at 66. The lowest setting is 2/3, which would clock it at 89.

Slack - I realize the AGP is more effecient, but if you use PCI video this board can be used at 133 FSB without any problems. I am also going to check with Abit to see if there is a BIOS fix/update for the AGP. It makes no sense to me to sell a board rated at 133 FSB, but not provide the facility to allow you to set the AGP properly.
 
As I understand it, and that doesn't go too deep, all components on the PCI bus share that bandwidth. At 32 bits(4 bytes) and 33 Mhz you've got 133 Mb/s. One 24/48 track is 3b/sample X 48,000samples/sec= .144 Mb/s. So it does seem that putting the video on the PCI bus should have little effect... unless there's IRQ issues which perhaps is what Slack is referring to?

Dachay, thanks for the info on the mobo but my only problem is with the AGP. BE6II "supports" 133 FSB as well. Also, I think the 2/3 AGP divider is a function of the chipset, not the BIOS. Hope, I'm wrong. Please post back what you find out either way.

Of course, I'm betting Slack already knows, he just likes the thought of me puking crosseyed in my 60 hz hell. WHoa! I think there's a song here! Gotta go...
 
The PIII 1GHz 100MHz FSB is available in Slot 1 only. Price is about $100 more than the FC-PGA 133MHz Bus.
 
Ouch, that's pricey!

There will never be a BIOS update to fix this multiplier problem...I believe it must be hardware implemented. Personally I have no idea why the 133Mhz BX boards don't have better AGP support, but so far I haven't been able to find ANY that do....so I'm thinking that it's not as simple as it sounds.

ap you're correct about all PCI devices sharing bandwidth. However the problem isn't necessarily bus saturation, because typically there's plenty of room for everything....the problem is that our little audio events must happen reliably, every single time...no amount of "oops I had to wait a little longer than I expected" is tolerable. That's not to say there are always problems, but it is wiser to stick with AGP for video. (personally I'd like to see soundcards with large internal recording buffers...that could help with a lot of problems)

Look into the i815 chipset since looking for 100Mhz FSB processors isn't worthwhile. Emeric mentioned a good Asus board above. For the most part Asus has a good reputation and their boards are really pretty, in a geeky kind of way :)

Slackmaster 2000
 
Yeah, I've already checked the CUSL2-C on pricewatch.com It got great reviews on tomshardware.com also. I noticed wavedigital.com is running 815's now too, whereas last summer when I first started looking they were all about the 440 bx. They seem to know what they're doing- I really can't judge that but it is another affirmation of the 815. Of course, what they call their "ludicrous" (money no object, best) system uses rdram or whatever it's called and the 820 or 840 chipset and I've never heard anything good about that stuff.

Toms Hardware had a shoot out with the 440 bx vs. 815 vs. 820 vs. 840 vs. VIA(I think) and the 440 kicked ass in almost every single category with the 815 not too far behind. The rdram boards did win a couple of memory intensive tests. The 440 was running at 133 and they did make note of the possible AGP problems.

From reading several articles there, they seem to use 440 bx at 133 on a regular basis but never say anything about having problems with refresh rates or resolutions etc. Only that some boards won't boot, and the ones that do may not last as long. Can't understand what they're doing or I'm not doing.

Let me ask for one last opinion, what do think would be better, a 440 bx at 100 FSB and 850e cpu, or a 815 at 133 and 800eb ?

P.S. Ok, I lied, how do you make a smilie appear mid-sentence?
 
The problem is that you're using this ATI video card and it's not working properly. It's the only video card you mentioned trying other than a V3 which you claimed did work until it finally failed (which could have been from anything).

I've been giving this some thought. Going to a 100Mhz FSB processor isn't a bad idea, but only if you can exchange your current processor. It's a quick fix solution, but a proper solution. However, this would be the last 100Mhz CPU you can put on the board, so we need to weigh your options here.

If you get an i815 board, you get the AGP mulitplier you need, and you get the ability to upgrade your CPU at a later point. This will cost you some money of course, and quite a bit of time, as I'd recommend a complete reinstallation.

If you got a stable overclockable video card, and it works out for you, then you will be able to upgrade to faster 133Mhz FSB processors in the future on your existing BE-6 II, and it will cost you very little money (assuming you get a refund on the ATI). However you are always running the risk of video failure...but when you think about it, maybe that's not so bad....video cards are relatively cheap anyways so it's not like a huge ordeal...although it has turned into one this time.

So the choice is yours. I only recommend exchanging the processor if you can do it for no cost. This is a simple and quick fix. I only recommend exchanging the motherboard if you're in for a headache and have some cash. It almost seem like now after some reconsideration, you should just exchange the video card for something else and get on with your recording :) Worry about your upgrade options later...things change quickly and it's fruitless to upgrade to technology you're not going to use.

Slackmaster 2000
 
I reccommend a Hercules 3D ProphetII PCI. I have the AGP version and it is really great! About $120.
H2H
 
I think you guys are wasting your time trying to find a new mb with a BX chipset that works at 133. The BX was a great chipset, but its day is done... I can appreciate someone trying to keep an old system updated, but if you are looking to buy new mb just move on.

I am using a Gadget Labs Wave 824 card in a ASUS P3V4X motherboard, using the VIA Apollo Pro 133A chipset, running @533. I have another system upstairs with the same motherboard with a SoundBlaster Live and an ATI Radeon card. NO PROBLEMS. I have yet to hear a single reliable report of a compatability problem in a board with a new VIA chipset. And if you want to go AMD they are the way to go, just look at the mb choices out there. Check the reviews on Tomshardware.com as well.

And if it matters, I also purchase my company motherboards (my day job is IT at a Telecom company). The last three generations of board I purchased were all ASUS, the P3B series (440BX) followed by P3V4X (VIA) and currently the CUV4X-E (also VIA). Now obviously we don't do audio production on these, but I will vouch that of the last 200 systems I purchased I had only 1 motherboard failure (that was a BX and it was probably due to a power surge). So I have no problem recomending ASUS.
 
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