1/2" tape AND Pro Tools; Am I nuts?

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guido #2

guido #2

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I'm trying to integrate my Tascam Model 38 into my PT rig just for the drums. I was gonna stripe a track, but that just leaves me with just seven. (there are 8 mic inputs in the drum booth)
So I started thinkin'.........
What if I just put the 8 track through the mixer as an INSERT??
All I really want is the EFFECT of the tape. I guess it would work, it's just that my brain is trying to configure this setup for ANYTHING, including using the 8 track stand alone w/out having to repatch....
I think I mite just be greedy :D
Oh - the mixer is an M312B

ANy thoughts??
 
First of all, I admire the fact that you actually HAVE an OPERATING studio and are actively using it. Kudos! Something I hope to be able to do on down the road.

Keep in mind that the 38 has no built-in timecode clock.

If you don't mind sacrificing 2 tracks for timecode and guard track, that leaves you w/ 6 tracks for drums. That way, you can be sure that whenever the 38 plays back with Pro-tools, it will be in sync w/ your timecode clock and line right up. From there, you have the option to either keep the drums on tape all the way til mixdown, or just dump them to pro-tools directly after recording to save wear and tear on the 38. (That way you could recycle tape for other sessions, if all you were using it for is drums.) :D

If you MUST have more drum tracks, then track the rest of the drum tracks to pro-tools, using the 38 simultaneously for the beefy mics (kick, snare, toms).

As for connections, 2 options the way I see it. you could just add patch points for the ins and outs of the 38. Or you can normal the mic-pre outputs from the drum booth to the 38 first, and then through your wherever-the-crap-they-go-now. That way, if you don't want to use the 38 for those jacks, just turn on the 38 and set it to monitor input, and leave it there while recording whatever you want to record onto instead. (Keep in mind that the ins/outs of the 38 are unbalanced, so this may result in increased noise, and coloration from the 38 track cards. (desireable? up to you.)

hope that helped
 
You're no more nuts than I am. :D

I think the monitor outputs of the tape machine don't actually go through the tape- so you can't monitor the signal going to tape in real time. You actually have to record on tape and play it back.

My intended use for my 8 track was also for drums- record the drums to any combination of the 8 tracks then re-record the tracks into pro tools and go from there. My initial experiments show that the tape doesn't quite play back in sync with any simultaneous recordings in Pro Tools so you can't record the rest of the band in PT at the same time and sync up the tape tracks later.

Syncing may be your best option- and its pretty freakin' nifty, at that. I'm not sure what extra hardware one needs to sync, though.

Take care,
Chris
 
Oh- If I recall correctly a 1/2" 8 might not need a guard band.

I could *easily* be wrong, but I read that in several places.

-C
 
OK. More ideas to make my head explode :)
I DO have a TASCAM MIDI sync box. Takes up one track.
I also was thinking that I would actually have to be in record on the 38 (been so long since I actually used it!)

What I was getting at was using the 38 as an effect, in and out, through my mixers inserts. I guess I'm wondering if there would be a delay....? It should work.... right..... :confused:
 
That would work, but you wouldn't accomplish anything except patching the 38's electronics into your mix. You wouldn't be getting any tape effect.
 
Hmmmm..... I cant see why not if I was recording and monitoring off the play head.....
Hmmm.......
Hmmm......
 
guido #2 said:
Hmmmm..... I cant see why not if I was recording and monitoring off the play head.....
Hmmm.......
Hmmm......
Click to expand...

If you recorded stuff to tape, and played it back, there WOULD be a delay (and a very ANNOYING one at that.) The tape cannot be in two places at once. There is a 2-inch space between the record head and the playback head. Once you record something, it takes a split second for that recording to go from the record head, to the playback head to be played back.


And I'm pretty sure that you can monitor signal that's being sent to the 38 without using tape. Just set it to record ready, and monitor source. Perhaps there's a tape sensor that also has to be shorted? I dunno, but it should work.
 
see, thats what I was getting at. That would leave me with that John Lennon thing going on......


Thanks for the input. I hafta go eat. I'll sleep on it. Maybe I'll try some experiments tomorrow :eek:
 
There won't be a delay if your version of Protools has full delay compensation on internal and external signals.

Nuendo has this (pings the external paths of reverbs, compressors, eqs, sound modules, tape machines etc etc), figures the delay or latency and then seamlessly compensates the delay against recorded daw tracks in real time. The latency/delay of any hardware/software insert can also then be adjusted to whatever offset one might want or need.

That would perfectly work for use of the 8 track as an effect at an insert. I believe the newer HD Protools have full delay compensation, but you'll have to check. I'll tell you, it's just one of the coolest tools on Nuendo.
-----------------------------

Now, in terms of just getting an instrument or voice to track through tape to get an analog effect, there are far easier ways for you to do this with Protools or any daw....

Just set up 8 of your recorded tracks...say 8 of your 15 recorded drums on Protools if that's what you have...play those 8 tracks out 8 individual outputs of Protools directly into the 8 track. When done, rewind the 8 track and play them back into Protools...recording the output of the 8 track to 8 new Protools tracks in the song. "Yeah, but they're not in sync". Who cares? Doesn't matter. Once the 8 tracks are back in Protools, use your move/nudge/edit controls to slide the 8 tracks into perfect, sample accurate sync to the original drums.

Then....grab the remaining 7 drums (or whatever)...record THEM out to the 8 track and repeat the process.

What you'll end up with is 15 tracks of drums that were directly recorded to Protools and 15 tracks of the same drums that were piped through the 8 track. You can then use the Protools mixer to use whatever combination of those you want.

No smpte or synchronizer required.

-----------------------------------------

There are many various offshoots to this idea that I've discussed with folks on a few of the other threads around here. I do a lot of analog/daw integration with and without synchronizers so over the years, I've tried just about every combination of things imagineable.
 
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yeah if you use it as an insert there will be a delay. your options are to sync it; or the better option would be to record the 8 tracks of drums (or maybe 6-7 and 1-2 guide tracks) and dump them into pro tools, before tracking anything else. but I personally think this whole concept is nuts.
 
Yeah, there will be a delay. I was thinkung about it last night. The best bet is to sync it or just flat out track and dump.

And yes, the whole concept IS nuts. This is what happens when you get bored :D
 
Dont' know if you've seen this thread, yet:

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=1683522&postcount=17

mixandmaster spells this out. I did a quick experiment and it worked- with the delay. Set the machine in record mode for the tracks you're using, but monitor off the play heads. I don't know why, but I thought the record monitor had to be activated for the machine to go into record mode.

Next up... to see if the delay compensation in Cubase really will catch this delay. If so, I may be recording in Cubase more often than I was... :D

Who needs sleep when you have recording toys??? :confused:
:D

-C
 
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

I feel like a kid in the candy store all over again.

Cubase SX didn't readily give me a way to insert the tape, but I know how to do that in Pro Tools- screw automatic delay compensation. So back to Pro Tools I went.

Recorded a guitar track. Recorded a bass track. Inserted the tape record/play onto the guitar channel. Yup- guitar is now quite late: buffer + convertor + tape head delay... all added up to about 3800 samples. I zoomed in, set the display to samples and highlighted the space between equivalent peaks- about 3800.

I shifted the guitar track back 3800 samples, hit record on the tape deck, hit play in Pro Tools...

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Who needs to spend $1500 on that Neve unit? I've got 8 channels of it sitting right here for almost 1/3 the price and the 1 minute it took me to figure out the delay value. (yeah, yeah... calibration, cleaning, yadda, yadda....stuff it. :D)

Man, this is fun. If nothing else its a GREAT way to figure out how the tape reacts to different levels of signal - you can adjust it and hear it in real time. Once you have the settings right, bounce to disk and there you go. Viola! The REAL TAPE audiosuite plugin. :D

I was happy I bought the 48, but now I'm REALLY EFF'IN happy I bought the 48.

-Chris
 
BRDTS said:
...full delay compensation, ..., it's just one of the coolest tools on Nuendo.
Click to expand...

No kidding. I was *hoping* SX would do this, but it doesn't seem to- or at least the way to do it is well hidden. It has ADC on all plugs and VSTi's, but I couldn't figure out how to get it to use harware I/O as an insert. I'll do some more research, but this may be one of the things Nuendo has that SX doesn't. Shame. That's a handy audio feature.

BRDTS said:
"Yeah, but they're not in sync". Who cares? Doesn't matter. Once the 8 tracks are back in Protools, use your move/nudge/edit controls to slide the 8 tracks into perfect, sample accurate sync to the original drums.
Click to expand...

This has worked for you? Without syncing the tape machine to the DAW. I tried this and the tape tracks drifted enough over the course of the song that I couldn't make it work without serious (and wierd) correction edits. That *was* before I replaced my sticky pinch roller... I'll have to try again and see if that makes a difference. It did strick me as odd, but not alarming.

Take care,
Chris
 
A common trick is to mix to tape. Tape that is pressed hard, so you get a bit of tape compression. It will also give you the bass bump that is often associated with "the tape sound".
 
..........."This has worked for you? Without syncing the tape machine to the DAW. I tried this and the tape tracks drifted enough over the course of the song that I couldn't make it work without serious (and wierd) correction edits. That *was* before I replaced my sticky pinch roller... I'll have to try again and see if that makes a difference. It did strick me as odd, but not alarming....."

--------------

For a 3 or 4 minute song, that indicates a LOT of tape speed fluctuation. Especially for any dc driven/crystal controlled tape machine that's in good shape. Whatever is causing that kind of drift, yeah, you'd have to slice up the returned tracks and nudge them around where they start to get out of whack in timing. But at least it is doable.

I do a lot of analog/digital transfers but I have synchornizers hooked up to the entire setup at all times, so I've not had to deal with any freewheeling problems.
 
TONS of great ideas. thanx to all. Sometimes ya just need to think out loud :p
Anyhow, I have some cabling and some blank tape coming next week. When I get it all together and see what works and what doesn't, I'll let you guys know...
Including if my TASCAM MTS-30 MIDI sync works with my PT rig....
YiY!
 
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