Pulled a coupla guitars from storage for general cleaning and love recently

[Seeker of Rock]

FTR, I use Joyo wireless live shows. Inexpensive but their wireless systems have worked.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

I just finished jamming with my friends... 3 hours with about a 20 minute break for some chit chat, a glass of bourbon, and some chips and salsa. I stood for the entire time, using my new H-530 hollow body/P-90 guitar (just over 6.5lbs).

The Joyo battery pack for the pedal board and the Joyo JW-06 wireless setup did great. I also tried a pair of KZ ZSN Pro in-ears which turned out to be very nice. I have tried several of my headphones (K-240s, HD280 and 7506s). The $20 in-ears did a better job and were more comfortable. I might have to pick up a spare set.

BTW, Congratulations! and cheers on the bourbon and chips/salsa!

 

[RFR]

That said, I’m surprised Jimmy Page’s frail frame played Les Pauls live for so many years. I’m guessing like me, it was the sound he wanted most and dealt with the negatives as a sacrifice.

Generally vintage bursts were much lighter.

Now think of poor Randy Rhoads with his smallish frame playing a 70s LP custom night after night! Back breakers!

 

[Seeker of Rock]

Generally vintage bursts were much lighter.

Now think of poor Randy Rhoads with his smallish frame playing a 70s LP custom night after night! Back breakers!

Allow me to drop some historic knowledge on the LP weight and history…read if you will, don’t learn if you don’t.

Here we go…

‘Vintage burst’ is a term that began as a finish in 1958 as the Les Paul Standard model was evolving back in its heyday.

All Les Paul models as they quickly grew in the mid ‘50s used better and more available wood back in the day. Select resonant pieces of Mahogany that were light but resonant…true tonewood. Demand wasn’t great so selection was discreet, weight wasn’t a factor because they had enough light AAAAA woods that discarding the rest didn’t matter.

Circa 1969 Gibson was sold to a conglomerate that assumed the Gibson name. South American water or beer company merged with something else IIRC. Norlin was the merging buyer with rights to the Gibson name, trademarks, etc. CBS did the same in late ‘60s when they acquired Fender.

After Norlin acquisition, parts were used until depleted as new parts and designs were fabricated. Typical corporate protocol and Kalamazoo Michigan plant still produced Gibson products , but pushed for new more economical designs. Welcome the ‘SG’ model.

So that quality wood of the ‘50s that had great res once but was also lightweight became scarce and Norlin profits became priority. Les Paul model went SG ‘Les Paul’ in the Gibson line…Les(s) wood, good tone wood, BAM! a winner in the new Norlin ‘60s profiteering corp!

Then ‘60s emerging guitarists didn’t like the SG ‘Les Paul’ and starting searching/buying ‘50s single cutaway Gibson guitars, ‘burst’ finish ‘58-59’ as that was peak production and most available.

Norlin recognized and the original single cutaway standard model body was brought back 1969, same Kalamazoo plant and same Norlin owership since 1960 buyout.

The premium tonewood mahogany body with carved maple top of 10 years prior was now under Norlin owership and strictly profit from an owner trying to sustain the product of a company they bought.

Early ‘70s Gibsons are valued (check it if you don’t believe me) because Kalamazoo tried to fight Norlin on wood/materials quality for one of their ventures, Gibson guitars.

Gibsons after ‘74 (20th anniversary editions) began to be value-engineered for additional profits. Gibson Les Pauls post 1974 anniversary still included the multi-layer ‘pancake ‘ body but substituted cheaper ceramic capacitors in the passive electronics and thinner (less metal cost) fretwire a.k.a. the ‘fretless wonders.

*Spoiler alert…Randy played a 1974 Les Paul Custom and it was likely a heavy ass guitar *

So Les Pauls from mid ‘70s on had the pancake body and were heavy as fuck. Light tone woods were expensive, heavier slabs of same Mahogany wood wascheaper. Take two lighter layers of premium light Mahogany, glue a cheaper layer between them to get the width, voila! Money savings everywhere

Early 1980s began a search by custom demand to recreate the 2959 Les Paul standard (‘burst) to spec. Gibson introduced the ‘Heritage’ series and there is where Tim Shaw and the Shaw ‘PAF reproduction’was birthed.

Heritage series was nice but not acvurate, so discontinued in 1982 corporately, but too Gibson luthiers kept refining and building customs and one-offs.

That kept on as the ‘prehistorics division within the factory.


Two of my Les Pauls are Norlin era, one is a very early luthier select/made 1986 prehistoric factory ‘1959 reissue’. Before the 1993 ‘Historic, Art’ factory opened under new corporate ownership. ‘Prehistorics were legitimate up until Juskiewtcz takeover in ‘86 and (parts leftover never unused) in 1987-ish the gorgeous Tim Shaw designed PAF reissue pickups were replaced by Bill Lawrence designed ‘circuit board’ modern pickups that called itself ‘The Original’. First official historic releases in early ‘90s used (IIRC ‘57 Classics or an early iteration of). Pups got confusing in the ‘90s and 2000s….’57 Classics, Burtbuckers, Probuckers, Custombuckers, buttbuckers….I didn’t care for that ___ bucker naming system.

So in my pics is the ‘dark heritage sunburst’. It’s around 8-9 lbs, maybe a little heavier than the Strat. It’s when Gibson elite team pre-historic started really selecting and setting aside woods with traits similar to those used in the ‘50s. She’s a beauty and is light and resonant.

The ‘85 Custom is my absolute favorite but is 10lbs.

The ‘98 Standard you see in my pics I haven’t weighed, but EASILY 11+ lbs. Not chambered but Swiss cheese weight relief era…she’s just a fucking beast of a guitar to play upright. That one has some hot pickups, a set called 490/498. A tone machine nonetheless

The rest of this post is a little Gibson Les Paul history. I’m a lover and a fan

I can play the fuck out of a plastic toy guitar if handed to me, put it through a modeler and it will be twisted and corrected to sound fine. Or better yet press buttons to program a guitar line. However, IMO there is no substitute for a real quality guitar… real tones and a real feel.

I have a close friend, a credit correction lawyer, he got into guitar/now recording a couple of years ago. He loves to argue (it’s his day job) but hates to lose and he will argue all day long about simulated guitar tracks vs real playing on a real instrument. I lol in empathy, but you either get it or you don’t. It’s that simple.

However, re: manufacturing…same day, same year, same pieces of wood…these are instruments made of organic materials. Each will have its own vibe, it’s own sound. That’s what makes choosing one so much fun.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

FWIW, I kinda stopped following the late ‘90s Juskiewtcz era when I started seeing ‘Les Paul Alien Yellow Flame Paint Classic Standard Custom ‘50s neck/‘60s neck curve/a little ‘70s/modern hot neck’.

Then to ‘robot Les Paul’ hit the market.


Gibson under Juskiewtcz (a player says he) went bankrupt Chapter 11 I believe in 2016. Now with same brand name under new ownership, 2017-present. For anyone following this far, that’s the ‘burst 1958’ up until now. FTR, I believe 1957 guitars were same as ‘58 and ‘59 instruments but only available in Ebony with gold appointments. Same instrument but block inlays and fancy hardware and headstock and available with 3 humbuckers. I could be wrong on the year and const. of the ‘57 Custom . May’ve lacked the maple cap or something that the ‘58 had.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Now with same brand name under new ownership, 2017-present.

Private equity, but with a management team who also play, for whatever that's worth.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

Private equity, but with a management team who also play, for whatever that's worth.

I haven’t played a new Gibson yet but plan to. I’ve read good things online. Juskiewtcz did goods things in his reign then the vision seems to have strayed. I think most buyers just want a really good guitar for a modest price. If they keep to that formula I think they’ll do fine. Before I bought my Standard I remember walking into a Mars music store(still miss that place) to buy a JC-120 (which I did) and just looking through Les Pauls. There were so many variations it made me dizzy. LPC seemed like the only straight forward LP model without 10 sub variations.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

I haven’t played a new Gibson yet but plan to. I’ve read good things online. Juskiewtcz did goods things in his reign then the vision seems to have strayed. I think most buyers just want a really good guitar for a modest price. If they keep to that formula I think they’ll do fine. Before I bought my Standard I remember walking into a Mars music store(still miss that place) to buy a JC-120 (which I did) and just looking through Les Pauls. There were so many variations it made me dizzy. LPC seemed like the only straight forward LP model without 10 sub variations.

I'm a Strat guy from way back, so the sound and feel of a Gibson is all wrong to me, and I have no interest. But, anecdotally, I've heard after really bottoming out in the late 90s annd early 2000s, quality control has gotten a lot better these days and Gibsons coming out of the factory now are no longer laughably bad. So, hopefully it really is a labor of love for their current team...

...but if I was in the market, I'd probably still just get a Heritage.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

I'm a Strat guy from way back, so the sound and feel of a Gibson is all wrong to me, and I have no interest. But, anecdotally, I've heard after really bottoming out in the late 90s annd early 2000s, quality control has gotten a lot better these days and Gibsons coming out of the factory now are no longer laughably bad. So, hopefully it really is a labor of love for their current team...

...but if I was in the market, I'd probably still just get a Heritage.

Heritage I’m happy to know formed. Always wanted to try and play one. The late ‘70s Kalamazoo recreations before they went Gibson dark were interesting. But that group never had the resources (and maybe the vision) to do proper recreations of yesteryear that artists were requesting due to corporate limitations. Aside from corporate the few sub 500 serial numbers I’ve seen from Kalamazoo have the shittiest blend of sunbursts. They remind me of budget brands. These as regular stock guitars before the closing. Sunburst blends are like a hard-lined reverse heart, very little fading between colors and over a particleboard looking wood finish.

Shaw developed the PAF in Kalamazoo IIRC. Heritage series was in Nashville and the series he was tasked to recreate the PAF for (again IIRC). Heritage 80 series had awesome fucking recreation pickups, on bodies that were still Norlin limited and trying to make a buck but looked way better than Kalamazoo attempts, at least the ones I’ve seen. That series started to get the paint blending right. Given it’s just a finish but if you can’t get the icing right, what’s that tell you about the cake?

1983 ended the Heritage and internal luthiers started one-offing non-corporate specs and getting closer to vintage 50’s Gibsons. As Kalamazoo was closing, some good luthiers were migrated to Nashville factory (several years operating at that point). I love Gibson history and products so I’m voicing out.

As for Les Paul models in particular, they are the most difficult guitar I’ve ever played, but the sweetest sounding guitars I’ve played, especially ‘70s era fretless wonders. I’m a bender and those low frets are a bitch to bend strings on.

I much prefer playing a semi hollow body humbucker than an LP, Strat style Fender/Jackson/Charvel/etc. because they play sooo easy.

Something about that LP vibe hooked me. I can’t really shred a LP and not really made to be. Other than fancy fast playing, they are an addictively beautiful instrument; one of those that has to be learned to play and style adjust for those of is that grew up on Strat style guitars, me being one and guessing you are another.

I keep on about Gibson heritage (not Heritage) but I really do dig their products. Like you (it seems), give me a light contour body double cutaway (with a quality trem my preference) and I’ll noodle and be happy, slow blues bend all day long. Give me a decent Les Paul or semi hollow body and I’ll write and chord and work my playing. IDK, my style and take on it.

Gibson history just got something right on the sound IMO. I’ve been really impressed by the Chinese Epiphone line as well, but wouldn’t trust them in a touring situation. Son still has my Epi DOT and hasn’t fallen apart yet.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

Heritage I’m happy to know formed. Always wanted to try and play one. The late ‘70s Kalamazoo recreations before they went Gibson dark were interesting. But that group never had the resources (and maybe the vision) to do proper recreations of yesteryear that artists were requesting due to corporate limitations. Aside from corporate the few sub 500 serial numbers I’ve seen from Kalamazoo have the shittiest blend of sunbursts. They remind me of budget brands. These as regular stock guitars before the closing. Sunburst blends are like a hard-lined reverse heart, very little fading between colors and over a particleboard looking wood finish.

Like these Kalamazoo sunburst examples on Reverb. Given this was ‘70s Norlin but a quality sunburst? It wasn’t a priority then, likely due to corporate restrictions, but these are l BOTH genuine Kalamazoo made Les Pauls, same plant (and some people) as Heritage guitars.
Not sure I buy into the whole Kalamazoo quality thing, but they do fetch prices with collectors.
Pics tell the story. Upside down blurred heart, typical of Kalamazoo era.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

I own two Norlin les Pauls, end of the run and should be the shittiest of the era. Surprisingly they at not. But remain cautious about the Kalamazoo production era and now under Heritage building Kalamazoo authentic guitars.

Nonetheless, ‘70s Gibson guitar is on my wish list. I’d go for a ‘70s 335, 337,345 over a Les Paul in that era, and all over a Heritage.

Last 335 I played in a store was 10 years ago and curious how it felt/sounded to the Epi I bought as a practice beater. Epi is very playable and a bargain for the price. Gibson felt and sounded like solid wood, acoustically. Plugged in the Epi is pretty fucking awesome for a $289 guitar. Anything over $2,500-$3,000 mark I don’t like to start the search taking chances.

$3,200 for an brand new Gibson 335 with a quality iced tea burst finish done well at the factory and sounds good, solid joints and details? Not unreasonable if the OHSC is included.

Push pull pickup splitting and coil taps built-in and radar detector alert when I’m driving? Maybe I’m old school but I hate that shit and never need it. Nothing in a song that I can’t do with a pickup selector and roll of a volume knob? I shouldn’t be on stage.

That’s not global advice for anybody else, that’s just me.

 

[TalismanRich]

I got this one 22 years ago for my 50th birthday. Straight from Kalamazoo. It's a great guitar, but at a bit over 9 1/2 lbs, I can only go about 45 mins to and hour before my back gives out. I once had it press enough on the nerve in my shoulder that my left fingers started to get numb.

When I was at the factory this past August, I tried out one of these. At about 6 1/2 lbs, I don't have any issues.

 

[jimistone]

I like heavy les pauls. I gigged with a 76 les paul custom for years. I never weighed it, but it was heavier than the traditional that i gig with now, that is close to 9 lbs. I dont care for the chambered les pauls. Too light, they feel like a toy to me instead of a real les paul.
Different strokes for different folks i guess

 

[jimistone]

Hmmm, myself and the boys got together after not playing for a few weeks. We did a 4 hr jam. I went home wiped out!
Usually we’ll just do 2 hours.

Man, I have new respect for aging legacy rock acts doing national and world tours!

Props to them.

But then again, they don’t have to lug their own gear.

Well, some aging rockers have gone to chambered body les pauls. I know Gary Rossington, of skynyrd, had a chambered version of his '59 bust signature made.
With heart problems and old plane crash injuries, he was struggling with the weight of his original 59 burst. (And his unchambered signiture models)+
.
His tone was just as good with the chamberd version as it wss with the original 59 burst IMO.
Im pretty sure he isnt the only old rocker to make that move.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

I got this one 22 years ago for my 50th birthday. Straight from Kalamazoo. It's a great guitar, but at a bit over 9 1/2 lbs, I can only go about 45 mins to and hour before my back gives out. I once had it press enough on the nerve in my shoulder that my left fingers started to get numb.

View attachment 150872

When I was at the factory this past August, I tried out one of these. At about 6 1/2 lbs, I don't have any issues.

View attachment 150873

I wouldn’t mind giving one of those H-535 semi hollow body models a try. I probably should’ve Fl driven to Sweetwater store when I was staying in Indy a couple of years back but didn’t think to. Seems they pop up at GC locations used on occasion. The prices are very reasonable and seems the burst finishes are no longer that hideous sideways heart paint job and the blending fade is good.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

I like heavy les pauls. I gigged with a 76 les paul custom for years. I never weighed it, but it was heavier than the traditional that i gig with now, that is close to 9 lbs. I dont care for the chambered les pauls. Too light, they feel like a toy to me instead of a real les paul.
Different strokes for different folks i guess

Amen.

And I’ve never had a problem with their weight as far as carrying one on my shoulder, it’s the dexterity as your body and arms shift while playing them that makes a Strat style so much easier to maneuver. Les Pauls just sound sooo fucking good at what they do, though.

I’m still trying to find a file of Jenny (8675309) I recorded in my old studio to get familiar with all of the gear I had on a familiar song when it was up and running, but no luck yet. I used the Strat in the pic for the intro riff and throughout, one of the LPs (maybe the Custom?) on the humbucker tracks. IIRC, both guitars mic’d up through the Super Reverb (maybe Marshall 2204 for the LP and that’s brain fuzzy now). It was the first multi-track in the new studio to test drum mics, treatment, 703 panels, bass traps, and room dynamics, different outboard equipment, etc. to see how everything worked together. BUT, same tune, all awesome guitars and clean settings for that particular song, but distinctly different personalities, though both fit their respective tracks beautifully.

Point being it’s was a great guitar tracking of a familiar song that never made it past a board mix and IMO, showed beautiful differences between two beautiful guitar manufactures and models in one familiar song, no tricks or processing except some rough mix reverb across most tracks and sparingly so I could hear the differences.

Tone is in the fingers to a degree. Same player, same studio, different gear for each track. I really hope I find that file.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

Interesting thing is the sound of a ‘prehistoric’ Les Paul 1986 with Shaw repro PAF pups, vintage binding in the cutaway, top cutaway, neck angle, etc. that emulated the ‘58-‘59 Les Paul Standard. The unofficial ‘custom shop’ in the ‘80s before Juskiewtcz and before official 1993 official Historic Art Division… That’s my girl that I own. With paperwork/sales receipt, all original including Lifton case.

What that mean? It’s collective as fuck. A great guitar and lucked into buying from a seller 50 miles away.

She is a bad ass ‘59 pre-reissue and a beautiful guitar, excellent guitar/case with all paperwork.

My favorite of 3 Lps is a used 1985 Les Paul Custom Ebony I bought blindly from Sam Ash NJ. Best guitar I own. Go figure. I lucked out on that one.

 

[jimistone]

Amen.

And I’ve never had a problem with their weight as far as carrying one on my shoulder, it’s the dexterity as your body and arms shift while playing them that makes a Strat style so much easier to maneuver. Les Pauls just sound sooo fucking good at what they do, though.

I’m still trying to find a file of Jenny (8675309) I recorded in my old studio to get familiar with all of the gear I had on a familiar song when it was up and running, but no luck yet. I used the Strat in the pic for the intro riff and throughout, one of the LPs (maybe the Custom?) on the humbucker tracks. IIRC, both guitars mic’d up through the Super Reverb (maybe Marshall 2204 for the LP and that’s brain fuzzy now). It was the first multi-track in the new studio to test drum mics, treatment, 703 panels, bass traps, and room dynamics, different outboard equipment, etc. to see how everything worked together. BUT, same tune, all awesome guitars and clean settings for that particular song, but distinctly different personalities, though both fit their respective tracks beautifully.

Point being it’s was a great guitar tracking of a familiar song that never made it past a board mix and IMO, showed beautiful differences between two beautiful guitar manufactures and models in one familiar song, no tricks or processing except some rough mix reverb across most tracks and sparingly so I could hear the differences.

Tone is in the fingers to a degree. Same player, same studio, different gear for each track. I really hope I find that file.

Yeah, strats have their unique tone and les pauls have theirs. Thats one reason lynyrd skynyrd mixes sounded so good...
Ed King played a strat a little on the clean side, Gary played a 59 burst a little on the dirty side, and Allen played an explorer or firebird.
Gave them a damn good blend where you could hear each guitar in the mix