What defines a great guitar?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Scott Baxendale
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To me any guitar that you pick up and as soon as you play it it instantly inspires you to play something you hadn’t previously thought of and then is hard to put down is a great guitar. Price point ultimately has nothing to do with it.
A great guitar is defined by a great player - just like a mediocre guitar is defined by mediocre player.
 
A great guitar is defined by a great player - just like a mediocre guitar is defined by mediocre player.
Sometimes great players play crappy guitars. A great player can play wooden blocks or pots and pans with no strings and create music.
 
One time I wanted just a cheap acoustic for my son. A buddy of mine was a manager at GC so I went there to see what they had. You might have known him in Denver; Jason McMillin.

Anyway, he said he had one just for me. It was a Mitchell he had placed aside that played and sounded awesome. It was a $100 guitar.

Shitty thing happened a few years later... Some douche canoe asshole who was recording in my studio swapped it for a piece of shit Harmony guitar that looked exactly the same. I didn't even notice for a couple of years after until someone picked it up and started playing it. The only reason I even remembered the name of the guitar is because I was recording a full length for a guy named Mike Mitchell when I bought the thing.
 
One time I wanted just a cheap acoustic for my son. A buddy of mine was a manager at GC so I went there to see what they had. You might have known him in Denver; Jason McMillin.

Anyway, he said he had one just for me. It was a Mitchell he had placed aside that played and sounded awesome. It was a $100 guitar.

Shitty thing happened a few years later... Some douche canoe asshole who was recording in my studio swapped it for a piece of shit Harmony guitar that looked exactly the same. I didn't even notice for a couple of years after until someone picked it up and started playing it. The only reason I even remembered the name of the guitar is because I was recording a full length for a guy named Mike Mitchell when I bought the thing.
Depending on the model the Harmony is probably a better guitar. Do you still have it? If so, send me s pic.
 
Sometimes great players play crappy guitars. A great player can play wooden blocks or pots and pans with no strings and create music.
Thats True - but a Crappy guitar in a Great Players hands becomes a Great Playing Guitar - the point is you can have 20 guitars - but not be a good player - so essentially all
20 guitars are crappy - until you put in the hands a great player - then the guitars are great players.
 
Thats True - but a Crappy guitar in a Great Players hands becomes a Great Playing Guitar - the point is you can have 20 guitars - but not be a good player - so essentially all
20 guitars are crappy - until you put in the hands a great player - then the guitars are great players.
Good guitars are not crappy guitars when played by a beginner.

Your point is beside the original point, and should get its own conversation. But this is a different conversation that is about the guitar itself.

Great guitars are great no matter whose hands they are in, so are crappy guitars, and so are mediocre guitars and so are good guitars. My original point was what defines a “great” guitar which makes significantly better than a good guitar no matter whose hands it is in.

Obviously, a shitty guitar in the hands of a great player will sound good to the listener, but not necessarily to the player. So will his blocks and cardboard boxes.

A great guitar in the hands of a great player will sound virtually the same to the audience as his mediocre guitar does, but this isn’t about the audience. I’m discussing the actual guitar.

A great guitar, to me, is one that once you pick it up you are immediately inspired to play something you haven’t even though of until you picked up that particular guitar and it is hard to put down.
 
Good guitars are not crappy guitars when played by a beginner.

Your point is beside the original point, and should get its own conversation. But this is a different conversation that is about the guitar itself.

Great guitars are great no matter whose hands they are in, so are crappy guitars, and so are mediocre guitars and so are good guitars. My original point was what defines a “great” guitar which makes significantly better than a good guitar no matter whose hands it is in.

Obviously, a shitty guitar in the hands of a great player will sound good to the listener, but not necessarily to the player. So will his blocks and cardboard boxes.

A great guitar in the hands of a great player will sound virtually the same to the audience as his mediocre guitar does, but this isn’t about the audience. I’m discussing the actual guitar.

A great guitar, to me, is one that once you pick it up you are immediately inspired to play something you haven’t even though of until you picked up that particular guitar and it is hard to put down.
I’ve picked up plenty of guitars that looked good with flawless workmanship, and had all the right stuff.

Felt like shit in my hands. I had no willingness to ‘give it a chance’, spend time to ‘bond’ with it, ect, etc.

For me an instant dealbreaker is polyester, polyurethane, UV cured urethane finishes.

Unless it’s lacquer, real nitrocellulose lacquer, not the stuff they call ‘nitro’ with plastisizers in it, or it’s an oil finish, I won’t give it a second look.

I know it might sound snobby, but how can I get the best out of an instrument that doesn’t feel good in my hands?

So, to directly answer the question posed, a good guitar is one that feels good in my hands. That’s number one priority.
 
For me an instant dealbreaker is polyester, polyurethane, UV cured urethane finishes.

Unless it’s lacquer, real nitrocellulose lacquer, not the stuff they call ‘nitro’ with plastisizers in it, or it’s an oil finish, I won’t give it a second look.

I know it might sound snobby, but how can I get the best out of an instrument that doesn’t feel good in my hands?

How would you even know if there is a plasticizer in the nitro? And what type? How much is used? There are numerous ways to modify nitro to stabilize it so that it doesn't degrade. It doesn't have to make things sticky or thick. Plus there are various grades of nitrocellulose, which will determine the durability of the finish, and how flexible the film will be, what solvents need to be used.

Just specifying "100% nitro" is meaningless.

The UV cured finish in my Gerard Melancon T is every bit as nice as the finish on my half dozen nitro finished guitars. It just won't crack up if it the temp swings too much.
 
How would you even know if there is a plasticizer in the nitro? And what type? How much is used? There are numerous ways to modify nitro to stabilize it so that it doesn't degrade. It doesn't have to make things sticky or thick. Plus there are various grades of nitrocellulose, which will determine the durability of the finish, and how flexible the film will be, what solvents need to be used.

Just specifying "100% nitro" is meaningless.

The UV cured finish in my Gerard Melancon T is every bit as nice as the finish on my half dozen nitro finished guitars. It just won't crack up if it the temp swings too much.
I’m no chemist but I know what feels right.

If you’re happy with your choices all the more power to you. :D
 
I’ve been in the vintage and new guitar business since 1974 and have seen about every kind of guitar ever made. There are certain guitars that have a mojo to them that can’t really be properly described words. When you pick it up it comes alive and floods you with musical inspiration.

I played a 1930’s Euphonon made by the Larson Brothers that was so magical that 42 years later I still dream about it. I played Not Fade Away on Buddy Holly’s Gibson J-45 with his hand tooled leather cover on the body, that he tooled himself and it made the hair stand up on the back of my neck as well as the necks of the 5 other folks there in that moment. It was immediate to every that this was the guitar from the original recording of Not Fade Away.

I freely admit to being an acoustic guitar tone snob, and there is a distinct difference between new $5000 modern acoustic guitars and what I call a great acoustic guitar.
 
I’m no chemist but I know what feels right.

If you’re happy with your choices all the more power to you. :D

I am a chemist (did ink coatings for over 40 years) and I can tell you that there are over 20 grades of raw nitro resin, and a half dozen that are suitable wood coating grades. My old company has a division that does packaging coatings, many of which are nitrocellulose based. It's really good for some things, but has disadvantages. It's REALLY dangerous stuff (I had to audit 3 plants using nitro after one plant had an explosion... thankfully nobody was hurt and the fire suppression system worked!) The wood grades are on the more highly nitrated side, closer to gun cotton. A good friend worked at a local coatings company and they used nitro for certain types of finishes.

Nitro has a distinct advantage over cured systems like UV or polyurethane coatings in that it is repairable. Nitro never cures, it is simply dissolved in a solvent, and after that evaporates, it's dry. But don't get the wrong solvent on you finish, as it will simply dissolve again. If you spray another coating on the old finish, the solvent will dissolve the old finish and bond perfectly well and dry. Anyone who has ever used DEET insect repellent and gotten it on their nitro finished instrument will know the feeling as your finish dissolves in their hand.

Even back in the 50s, some companies added a small amount of co-resin to help make the coating more durable. So unless you know the company that is making the lacquer, you really have no idea what is in the finish. I'm sure Scott knows the ins and outs of the various finishes pretty well.
 
I am a chemist (did ink coatings for over 40 years) and I can tell you that there are over 20 grades of raw nitro resin, and a half dozen that are suitable wood coating grades. My old company has a division that does packaging coatings, many of which are nitrocellulose based. It's really good for some things, but has disadvantages. It's REALLY dangerous stuff (I had to audit 3 plants using nitro after one plant had an explosion... thankfully nobody was hurt and the fire suppression system worked!) The wood grades are on the more highly nitrated side, closer to gun cotton. A good friend worked at a local coatings company and they used nitro for certain types of finishes.

Nitro has a distinct advantage over cured systems like UV or polyurethane coatings in that it is repairable. Nitro never cures, it is simply dissolved in a solvent, and after that evaporates, it's dry. But don't get the wrong solvent on you finish, as it will simply dissolve again. If you spray another coating on the old finish, the solvent will dissolve the old finish and bond perfectly well and dry. Anyone who has ever used DEET insect repellent and gotten it on their nitro finished instrument will know the feeling as your finish dissolves in their hand.

Even back in the 50s, some companies added a small amount of co-resin to help make the coating more durable. So unless you know the company that is making the lacquer, you really have no idea what is in the finish. I'm sure Scott knows the ins and outs of the various finishes pretty well.
I was going to ask you what your background was, as you’d brought up lacquers before. I got the idea from previous posts that you had some kind of background into formulas. Thanks for sharing.

Over the years I’ve worked with a bunch of different finishes, but as i said, I’m no chemist. And I didn’t mean that as a crack, I was being literal. :D

Ps. Did you know playing cards in the 50s were coated in lacquer? You could shave slivers off, stuff em into a small cardboard tube , stuff in a fuse and make a firecracker. :D
 
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They once made billiard balls out of celluloid which is a modification of nitrocel. Unfortunately, there is the possibility that the ball would explode. They still make some balls from nitrocellulose, but it has to be properly stabilized. Most balls are made of phenolic resin today. I once made a nitro based coating for my slot car chassis. I was making them from brass and they would get tarnished, and occasionally sparked when hitting the braid. I coated them with the lacquer and it kept them looking shiny and new. The only issue was it made it tougher to resolder things if a crash caused a cracked joint. A quick wipe with some acetone would clean it off.

My friend that worked at the coating factory said years back, a fellow found some dry nitro at the bottom of a can and thought it was cool looking. He popped it out and put it in the lunchroom, and someone thought it was an ashtray. Luckily it was a relatively small can, as the cigarette set the thing on fire. It burned right through the table. The guy was lucky.

One of the bad things about nitrocel based materials is that they can degrade, giving off nitric acid. You've seen the celluloid pickguards and the corroded metal parts on old guitars. That's the nitro breaking down. Guitar finishes are much thinner, but they still can break down and off gas. That causes the finish to become even more brittle and makes the finish more yellow.

I like my nitro finished guitars, but my G&L, Taylor and Melancon are all nice as well.
 
Ps. Did you know playing cards in the 50s were coated in lacquer? You could shave slivers off, stuff em into a small cardboard tube , stuff in a fuse and make a firecracker. :D
I never made firecrackers that way. However my brother and I used calcium carbide to fire our carbide cannon (it releases acetylene gas and makes a really nice boom!)
 
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I never made firecrackers that way. However my brother and I used calcium carbide to fire our carbide cannon (it releases acetylene gas and makes a really nice boom!)
Let me ask you this. What are the flattening agents and how do they work? A satin finish is cool, but they don’t stay that way. On a neck, given enough time, they’ll get polished up to a gloss finish. Kind of defeats the original intention.
 
The pickups, pots, and caps have the most effect on tone on a electric guitar. The body wood to a lesser effect.
I have seen electric guitars that don't sound very good acoustically but sound amazing plugged in. On the flipside I have played guitars that really sound good acousticly that were nothing special plugged in.
The famous 1959 les paul burst owned by Ed King (of lynyrd skynyrd fame) "redeye" ...according to Ed himself...."sounded thin and had no resonance unplugged, but sounded amazing plugged into an amp" He also said it's the best playing '59 burst he ever played.
 
Jason Isbell bought Ed kings redeye 59 burst for an undisclosed amount. The "sweet home alabama" strat sold for $450k and "redeye"was the crown jewel of Ed's collection. So, I think it's safe to say Jason paid north of $500k for it.
 
Let me ask you this. What are the flattening agents and how do they work? A satin finish is cool, but they don’t stay that way. On a neck, given enough time, they’ll get polished up to a gloss finish. Kind of defeats the original intention.
There are several, but the one that one I suspect is most used for gloss reduction in a coating like that is fumed silica, a very VERY fine particle. A little bit goes a long way, but the stuff is a royal pain to handle. A bag the size of a leaf bag weighs only a few pounds and any breeze will blow the stuff all over the place. Plus, it's not good to breathe. Really nasty stuff to work with! But the particles are so small that they won't plug spray nozzles. A few places premake pastes that can be added without making such a mess. It's also used in epoxy coatings, and as a thickener. Very useful stuff, but as I said, nasty to work with.

Other types of flattening agents could be calcium carbonate or kaolin clay, but both have a bigger particle size, so they might present an issue. They are also pretty dense materials so they often settle. That's more what you find in paint than a clear lacquer. They are cheaper than silica. We used to buy kaolin by the rail car, about 120,000 lbs a pop. It's cheap.

I know what you mean about it wearing away. My Taylor has a neck that was matte when I got it, but is really shiny now after 15 years of playing.
 
I never made firecrackers that way. However my brother and I used calcium carbide to fire our carbide cannon (it releases acetylene gas and makes a really nice boom!)
As a kid we had these little cars with a big head driving it and he had a cigarette in his mouth. The cigarette was made from celluloid and you would light it and drive it around while the little guy would smoke his cigarette. The smell of it burning was very distinctive and years later working with celluloid binding we found out how flammable it is and immediately knew the smell. It has camphor in it which was the distinctive odor. I’ve come to like that smell.
 
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