Newbie on steriods

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dbsoccer

Member
So a few years ago prior to retiring, I decided to pursue a hidden passion of singing some place other than in the shower or the car. I started taking lessons and quickly learned that recording my voice would be helpful if I wanted to improve. So I bought a Zoom H2n recorder. I knew nothing about recording anything - even with a cell phone. And I am embarrassed to say I have used the Zoom very little because I can't figure out how to get good recordings. I read the reviews about how good this recorder is but I can't seem to make it work as I'd like. Today, while taking another run at understanding the recorder I ran into this forum. So my goal, with some patient help, is to finally understand how to use the H2n well enough to at least make recordings I can learn from. Today I also found a great website posting that discusses this recorder in detail but if questions come up outside what I learn from other places I may drop in and post a question.

After I started this post I scanned a few of the other Newbie posting and found that most all members are working with equipment and problems much more complex than mine. So if this is not the right place to tackle the "complexities" :-) of the H2n, please let me know and I'll find something more appropriate.
 
The H2n is a pretty good device, but it's primarily meant to easily capture a whole acoustic space (like a string quartet in an auditorium) rather than an isolated voice.

I sort of suspect that the Mid-Side mode might be the most useful in that you could discard the side element and keep just the mid.

Can you describe what it is about your results that isn't working for you?
 
Don't forget that recording voice, probably above every other instrument relies so much on the room. An average voice in a beautiful space outpaces a great voice in a rubbish room. When you record with your zoom - you are recording everything, so the location is key to success.
 
I believe my issue has been (don't laugh) is the playback sound quality using whatever speaker is in the Zoom was not good. Duh! I read a real complete webpage article on the H2n and have now decided I was doing some very basic things wrong like device placement versus mode. And after just now putting into practice what I learned from the article things sound much better but, obviously, listening to the playback via headphones or other speakers. But the more I think about this it may all be moot.

I have a Shure SM58 plugged into a simple two channel mixer with a small mp3 player plugged into channel 2 to provide my accompaniment back music. I also have a small studio speaker as the primary output so I can more closely listen to my off key voice. The reason I say X-Y versus surround versus M-S may be moot is I realized I can plug the head phone out jack of the mixer into the input of the H2n and I should get the mix I've dial up on my mixer without concerns about much of the other stuff. Is this off track?
 
That seems like a workable process for now.

There are better devices for this. The H2n and the like are really for capturing sounds in the "wild." You might start thinking about a setup that's oriented more toward a studio process, either an all-in-one device or an audio interface for a computer.
 
rob aylestone said:
Don't forget that recording voice, probably above every other instrument relies so much on the room. An average voice in a beautiful space outpaces a great voice in a rubbish room. When you record with your zoom - you are recording everything, so the location is key to success.
Click to expand...
Thanks Rob. This is something I've be aware of as when I sing 'in the shower' versus in the garage versus the studio of my vocal instructor, they all sound different. Of course it has to do with resonance. But I've never figured out why in my garage I sound so good. :-) Much of this has to do with singing with and without a microphone. Singing with a microphone brings on many new challenges. The normal feedback you get without that comes from your mouth to your ears is gone. It's replaced with from the mouth to the mic to the electronics, out the speaker and then to your ear. So the singer hears it the first time just when the audience hears it. In-ear monitors help. Stage monitors help but this all takes practice. So my hope is by using the mic and the monitor I can get used to hearing me sing and get used to and adapt to this new feedback stream.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
That seems like a workable process for now.

There are better devices for this. The H2n and the like are really for capturing sounds in the "wild." You might start thinking about a setup that's oriented more toward a studio process, either an all-in-one device or an audio interface for a computer.
Click to expand...
Thanks Boulder Sound Guy (I am assuming Boulder Colorado?). When you said all-in-one device did you have something in mind that someone like Sweet Water may have?
 
dbsoccer said:
Thanks Boulder Sound Guy (I am assuming Boulder Colorado?). When you said all-in-one device did you have something in mind that someone like Sweet Water may have?
Click to expand...
Yes, Colorado.

Something like this might be enough for you:

www.sweetwater.com

TASCAM DP-006 6-Track Digital Pocketstudio

6-track Portable Digital Multitrack Recorder with 2 Built-in Microphones, 9 Hours of Battery Life and USB 2.0 Output
www.sweetwater.com www.sweetwater.com

This one has actual XLR inputs, which I'd prefer:

www.sweetwater.com

TASCAM DP-008EX 8-track Digital Portastudio

8-track Digital Studio and SD Recorder with Built-in Stereo Microphones, 2 x Microphone Preamplifiers, Built-in Tuner and Metronome, and USB Data Transfer
www.sweetwater.com www.sweetwater.com
 
Whenever you assess yourself you will never get it right. Find a person who has no axe to grind and doesn’t know you, and ask their opinion if they have experience of your sort of music. If you hate their comments it doesn’t matter, but it is what a stranger with no knowledge of you thinks. That, even if blunt, is so worthwhile. Worst are your family and friends especially if they are musically, er, unaware. You cannot make progress without knowing current level. Singing teachers usually know how much potential there is from experience.
 
Thanks to both Rob and Bouldersoundguy. This exchange has been helpful. I may invest in a different recorder if the budget allows. For now, this is all just for fun - sort of like retired guys/gals playing golf and want to get better so they take a lesson or two. They have no designs are fame or trophies. Just to have fun and improve. So thanks again.
 
I have been messing with my original set-up and still wonder what would be better. Bouldersoundguy suggested using a TASCAM product in place of the Mix5 and Zoom. Eventually I will want to bring the tracks into Audacity on my desktop so I was thinking something more direct. Would it make sense to cable from the mixer directly to the desktop/Audacity? Currently the desktop is not close to the room where I practice but I'm thinking I can make some changes. I have been using a studio monitor for feedback but if I were to use headphones instead it makes the room change easier. (And I suspect using headphones is much preferred anyway??) I am assuming I cable into a USB port on the computer after finding the proper cable. Or is the something else in between? Thoughts?
 
An audio interface (AI) goes between your mics, instruments, headphones and studio monitors on one side and your computer on the other. The common ones connect via USB. Figure out how many sources you're going to record at one time and get an AI with at least that many inputs. If all you do is sing, you could get a Scarlett Solo, but a Scarlett 2i2 would be more versatile. If you sing and play guitar and there's even a slight chance you might have a friend over to sing or play along, consider the 4i4, and keep the Mix5 around to expand the functionality of the line inputs. And I'm just using the Focusrite Scarlett series as a well-known example. There are other makers of good interfaces.

I would strongly recommend moving away from Audacity and using a proper DAW. There are lots out there, but the usual suggestion is to try Reaper. It's free to try and it's pretty cheap to buy. I think most DAWs have demos you can try so you can find one that suits your preferences. They all do more or less the same job, but they differ in how the controls are arranged.
 
Thanks Boulder Sound Guy, Seems either Tascam-type product or the AI product replaces the Mix5, obviously. What I need to do, based on prior knowledge and insight you contributed to regarding an in-ear question I had in another thread today, I need to construct a system that I can easily record myself in such a manner I can quickly review the recording. At this time I'm not too interested in producing a recording or things I suspect a proper DAW would be used for. I see a need to be able to cut sections out of a longer recording, say several recordings in a row of the same song. If I liked. say, the 3 attempt I may want to send that off for someone (vocal coach, etc.) to listen to and provide comments. It seem Audacity would suffice for this need but I hear what you're saying about needing something more sophisticated if I were to explore track manipulations, etc.

Having said that and given the two hardware options above, could you suggest a simple set-up that would allow me to use my mic ,and mp3 player, to sing and record such that I can quickly listen the recording. I'd think about the issues I hear and record again. I need to study the Tascam units above and see what internal storage and play back options are included with these units. After that it may be a matter of coming up with a suitable pair of speakers. Again, thanks for your help. I hope you got your recent snow shoveled.
 
As it turns out, I have an older (not terribly old) lap top that I could attach to a Scarlett 2i2 and this, with a inexpensive set of powered speakers I may have a better setup than I have currently and one that will allow me to record and quickly review. While the TASCAM would do many of the same things (and without the laptop) it seems the AI will be a system that will be easier to work with. Thoughts?
 
bouldersoundguy said:
If all you do is sing, you could get a Scarlett Solo, but a Scarlett 2i2 would be more versatile.
Click to expand...
As expected the more I learn the more questions I have. I have learned, referring to my thread on using EIM at an Open Mic, that the sound guy at the place I'd most like go for Open Mic can deal with a EIM transmitter which would forgo the need to have my own mixer on stage, etc. Bottom line is I need to get comfortable that I don't really need anything special for performing but that's a ways off at this point. But I still want to record practice sessions using an AI.

My input tracks are stereo via an mp3 player. The input for my mp3 on the Scarlett Solo or 2i2 would be an instrument input i.e. mono input. Can you input stereo on an AI- maybe by using two inputs. Or is there an AI that is known that has a stereo input? I will call Sweetwater etc with the same question. What I did notice is the Scarlett Solo (and the 2i2) has a headphone/stereo out which is puzzling. How can you have a stereo out if you don't have anything feeding in a stereo signal. Must be two identical signals on both right and left??
 
I suppose the question we've not asked is what exactly are you trying to do? Are you singing a capella, or are you singing to something, and if it's a track of some kind, was it produced to be sung over? That seems a bit odd, but many instrumental track are not mixed to give room for a vocal to sit into. Karaoke tracks are a bit better, because they've been mixed for at least a voice - but even these might make a hole for a female singer - lets say a Whitney Houston with all that high screechy stuff, but you might have a much lower voice so it isn't a perfect 'fit'. Let's say your track is a perfect match for your voice, and you've recorded it nicely with the Zoom or Tascam type devices and a nice sounding mic maybe rather than the built in ones. All your DAW needs to be able to do is balance the track against the voice, and apply EQ separately to both. Some reverb and compression for the voice will help it sit in the mix. for most people that's it, and ANY application that can do that will produce decent results. How easy they make it differs between the freebies and the expensive one in often the wrong way. Sometimes for beginners, the clever ones frustrate, the simple ones make it easy. Then you get better (or more demanding) and that's when some DAWs start to annoy!

The basic process though, is very similar on all - and few sound horrid, if any.

Key Requirements
1. A decent track
2. A mic that suits your voice - possible a built in one on the recorderd, but for voice, probably not.
3. A good set of ears to balance the two sources and something to do it on.
 
Thanks for the response. At this point I mostly trying to learn and understand at a level I've never considered in the past. Bottom line is I'm just trying to improve my vocals purely to just improve - no other real goal. Singing is one of my retirement hobbies and like with most things of this nature, I drill into the subject to learn how to do the best I can do (given obvious limitation of course) Until my vocal instructor stopped teaching I took lessons for a few years, etc. I know and have heard and read many times from others that one of the best ways to improve is to record your singing and listen to it for areas you'd like to be better (And have others listen as well - when you have something worth listening to.) I've pretty much settled, after a diversion into a combo EIM system for both Open Mic performances and practice, on just investing in an AI and some decent speakers and using a computer and a decent DAW, record myself from time to time. I'll try to address the concern for the EIM need another way.

The question around stereo versus mono came about from my learnings about mixers, their inputs outputs, Aux, mono, stereo, buses etc. And when I realized the Scarlett Solo had a headphone out but only mono in I had to wonder.

At this point I feel one of the Scarlett AI units and some reasonable speakers will meet my needs. And I do appreciate the input and teachings.
 
dbsoccer said:
So a few years ago prior to retiring, I decided to pursue a hidden passion of singing some place other than in the shower or the car. I started taking lessons and quickly learned that recording my voice would be helpful if I wanted to improve. So I bought a Zoom H2n recorder. I knew nothing about recording anything - even with a cell phone. And I am embarrassed to say I have used the Zoom very little because I can't figure out how to get good recordings. I read the reviews about how good this recorder is but I can't seem to make it work as I'd like. Today, while taking another run at understanding the recorder I ran into this forum. So my goal, with some patient help, is to finally understand how to use the H2n well enough to at least make recordings I can learn from. Today I also found a great website posting that discusses this recorder in detail but if questions come up outside what I learn from other places I may drop in and post a question.

After I started this post I scanned a few of the other Newbie posting and found that most all members are working with equipment and problems much more complex than mine. So if this is not the right place to tackle the "complexities" :-) of the H2n, please let me know and I'll find something more appropriate.
Click to expand...
Never forget, you are your own worst critic.
 
Morning dbsoccer, my son uses a Tascam DR-40X portable recorder to record classical guitar in his flat in France and gets very decent results. I would say the H2n is of very similar quality and should be fine so long as you control the main room resonances. (he doesn't bother, he likes the rather 'spacey' sound)

He does however listen on what are perhaps the best of the really cheap 'media' speakers, a pair of Presonus Eris 3.5. These are adequately loud for him. Re recording with a backing track? Yes you will need a mixer and if the track's source is a phone, as it often is, this https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hanprmeee-...2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9zZWFyY2hfdGhlbWF0aWM&psc=is the cable you need to get stereo into the mixer.

People often don't quite understand mixers and stereo/mono? Assuming you send the two track to say inputs 1 &2 on the mixer, the PAN controls need to be set hard anti clockwise (1 L) and hard clockwise (2 R) Set in the centre will give you double mono. Most mixers have 'just' line ins, no mic as well and in that case you will have a Balance control. Set that centrally.

Audacity is fine for a basic 'grab' and is an excellent editor. You will need a 'proper' DAW if you want more facilities and certainly if you wish to use ASIO drivers (for low latency) Reaper is a no-brainer.

Dave.
 
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