Why hi-hat always need panning but not the vocal?

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athrun200

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After using DAW for a while, I start to pay attention to the panning when I listen to a song.
What I observed is that the hi-hat always panned to the right and the vocal never panned.

I wonder if there are examples that the main vocal being panned.
 
That would be because the vocal is generally the focal point of the song, and the hihat, from an audience's perspective, is slightly to the right...

I've heard vocals and drums panned in various ways - some more successful than others. Depends upon what's trying to be achieved, but there's a reason why the (lead) vocal's usually straight down the centre...
 
athrun200 said:
I wonder if there are examples that the main vocal being panned.
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Listen to several Beatles recordings. The whole band is on one side and the vocals on the other on many tunes.

That said, the whole "stereophonic" thing was pretty new at the time... I'm quite sure they wouldn't mix those songs the same way today (or 40 years ago for that matter).
 
Here is an example of panned vocals. Left and right and then in the chorus, both come together in the center.

 
FWIW i helped a band record once and they had two singers that were always trading lead position in just about every song. When it came down to mixing, the guy i was helping felt it would be cool to pan each singer just just a little bit left or right according to the position on stage. Singer A, like 4% to the right and Signer B 4 or 5% to the left. They were primarily a live performing band. To me that technique was subtle, and at the time i was sort of green behind the glass and didn't really note anything different, but perhaps subconsciously to their core audience it might have made sense? If i had those recordings now i'd love to hear them on my setup at home now that my ears listen to stuff a little differently.
 
You might have your right and left confused.

Text book drum mixing 101 - you mix based on sitting at a drum kit, and since more people are right handed, the hihat is usually left.

I see some people do the exact opposite (from the "sound engineer's perspective")... A Guide to Effective Drum Mixing – Part 1 - Tuts+ Music & Audio Tutorial

The takeaway is the drums are mixed relative to how they are physically laid out. *** see the next replies below ***

Lead vocals should always be somewhat centered so they're present from both speakers, so no matter where the listener is they can always hear them. I know some people only listen to music with one earbud in at work. They're not changing their audio settings to mono to do this, as an example. Stting in a car is another, the driver and passenger are hearing different speakers at differing volume levels. Weighing the vocals more center assures they can each hear them.
 
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All that said, I sometimes slightly pan a lead vocal if there's a functional need, like a higher pitched synth or guitar on one side that would compete with the same frequencies as the vocals, so I nudge the vocals ever so slightly into the other ear just to give them a bit of separation.
 
I didn't know there was a "standard". Pan them wherever you want. I'm a lefty, so I pan mine to the right.

But when you think of it, it should really be the opposite (if it "should" be anything). If I was watching a video of a right handed drummer, his hi-hat would be on the right from an audience perspective. So, it would make more sense that it would be more in the right speaker. If I'm watching a video (or live performance), and the drummer does a roll, I'd expect to hear the toms go from (my)right to my left. It would be weird to hear the toms going one way, and see them going another way.
 
RAMI said:
I didn't know there was a "standard". Pan them wherever you want. I'm a lefty, so I pan mine to the right.

But when you think of it, it should really be the opposite (if it "should" be anything). If I was watching a video of a right handed drummer, his hi-hat would be on the right from an audience perspective. So, it would make more sense that it would be more in the right speaker. If I'm watching a video (or live performance), and the drummer does a roll, I'd expect to hear the toms go from (my)right to my left. It would be weird to hear the toms going one way, and see them going another way.
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I agree, for a live video mix that makes sense. But from a musician standpoint I find mixes done from the vantage of me being the musician work best for my ears and sound stage. Some of the rock music I listen to has the hihat in the left (position from drummer's vantage).

Example - hihat in the left, higher toms left to lower toms right just like a right handed drummer's kit from their perspective (he is a right handed drummer):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pghhg40gTs4

Example of the opposite, mixed from the sound engineer's perspective, hihat right and ride cymbal left, toms rolling right to left:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auLBLk4ibAk


So there's no right / wrong, the thing these mixes share in common is the drums are mixed relative to the layout of the hit (snare/kick middle, hihat on one side, ride on the other, toms in order from high to low L --> R or R --> L).


To further confuse, here's a center hihat lol [might be slightly right, at least when open]:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULjCSK0oOlI
 
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Pinky said:
I agree, for a live video mix that makes sense. But from a musician standpoint I find mixes done from the vantage of me being the musician work best for my ears and sound stage. Most of the rock music I listen to has the hihat in the left (position from drummer's vantage).
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Hogwash. There's no fucking "rule" on that.

Drums are mixed how they are laid out. But whether that's hats left or right doesn't mean jack shit. The hats fall where they fall in the overheads if you're using stereo overheads. Whether you make that your right or left, or their right or left, it doesn't matter.
 
Greg_L said:
Drums are mixed how they are laid out.
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Greg, isn't that what I said? (twice/both replies?)

It's actually the other sites I found that said there are rules. I was simply explaining my personal choices.

I did change Most to Some of the rock music I listen to, since upon investigation it seems there's more right hihat mixing than I ever noticed. If my informal survey was any indicator, right hihat seems to be the consensus ("rule").
 
Pinky said:
Text book drum mixing 101 - you mix based on sitting at a drum kit, and since more people are right handed, the hihat is usually left.
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You said this ^^^^^

I'm saying it's bullshit. There's not even a tendency. Listen to 1000 songs and it will probably be pretty evenly split.

I like to pan from the drummer's perspective because I'm a drummer. But I've done lots of stuff for others that goes the other way. It simply does not matter.
 
The only thing you need to look for is a mic'd hi-hat track. If you have the hats in the overheads falling on the left in the mix, don't pan your mic'd hat track to the right. That's just dumb. There's a rule for ya.
 
When I mix drums, I mix the hi-hat to the right, because my lad sets his kit up right-handed and I like to hear the drums with the stereo image that an audience member sitting in front of the band would hear. A right-handed drummer might mix the kit the opposite to me, because that's the way he hears his drums normally, and that's what would sound natural to him. I can't justify one over the other, which is the same as saying it doesn't matter.
 
Bubba po said:
When I mix drums, I mix the hi-hat to the right, because my lad sets his kit up right-handed and I like to hear the drums with the stereo image that an audience member sitting in front of the band would hear. A right-handed drummer might mix the kit the opposite to me, because that's the way he hears his drums normally, and that's what would sound natural to him. I can't justify one over the other, which is the same as saying it doesn't matter.
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Exactly. It does not matter. Out of all the debates to come out of the recording world, drummer vs audience perspective has to be the dumbest.
 
Out of curiosity, for you fellas that have recorded entire albums with drums, do you switch around the drum panning over the course of the album? Does it bore the listener to have the hihat on the left and the ride on the right, song after song after song? Or do you mix it up for variety? For some reason that's been bugging me lately although I couldn't tell you from memory if its the same or various on any album I've ever listened to...
 
Tadpui said:
Out of curiosity, for you fellas that have recorded entire albums with drums, do you switch around the drum panning over the course of the album? Does it bore the listener to have the hihat on the left and the ride on the right, song after song after song? Or do you mix it up for variety? For some reason that's been bugging me lately although I couldn't tell you from memory if its the same or various on any album I've ever listened to...
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I go to great lengths to make the drums are as consistent as possible from song to song. I like albums that sound like they were recorded all at once in the same space and place in time. I personally dislike albums that sound like a bunch of singles thrown together. So for me, consistency is the rule, and the drum panning always stays the same. If your drums are panned in a natural way, they won't get tiresome. If you're using a drum program and have single hits popping in and out from weird places in the stereo field, then that can be a problem. When we say "hats right or left" it's not that extreme.
 
Greg_L said:
I go to great lengths to make the drums are as consistent as possible from song to song. I like albums that sound like they were recorded all at once in the same space and place in time. I personally dislike albums that sound like a bunch of singles thrown together. So for me, consistency is the rule, and the drum panning always stays the same. If your drums are panned in a natural way, they won't get tiresome. If you're using a drum program and have single hits popping in and out from weird places in the stereo field, then that can be a problem. When we say "hats right or left" it's not that extreme.
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I see where you're coming from. I still have much to learn about drum panning because like you say, I use sampling software and the default panning on all of them I've used is pretty extreme. I try to reign it in a bit but I'm sure that I still end up with wider than life drums. But that's a good point that if the panning isn't extreme, it doesn't get tiresome.

With guitars its pretty easy to me...keep it balanced. I like wide-panned guitars but only for doubling. But I admit that it's cool to have some "color" parts and fills be off to the extreme sides of the field.

One of my all-time favorite albums is Kill The Moonlight, by Spoon. I love that album to death, but the panning decisions on it are pretty obnoxious. I made the mistake of listening to it on headphones a time or two and it's damn right disorienting. They got a little too cute with the panning. But that's a good example of an album where the drums are all over the place for some songs but still forms a basis. And I like that they name-drop 3 Iggy Pop songs in the 2nd track :)
 
Greg_L said:
I go to great lengths to make the drums are as consistent as possible from song to song. I like albums that sound like they were recorded all at once in the same space and place in time. I personally dislike albums that sound like a bunch of singles thrown together. So for me, consistency is the rule, and the drum panning always stays the same. If your drums are panned in a natural way, they won't get tiresome. If you're using a drum program and have single hits popping in and out from weird places in the stereo field, then that can be a problem. When we say "hats right or left" it's not that extreme.
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Yeah, I agree dude...To me, having the drums panned pretty consistently kinda "glues" the songs together I suppose....if that makes any sense....That's the idea I have for my "album" too, pretty much the same thing anyway.....
 
To match video is one thing, but really an 'audience member would have to be setting on the stage in front of the kit to even hear a bit of 'hat right effect. For the most part it's just what makes for a pleasing effect and interesting mix. Actually that's why maybe -being not a drummer, I still like 'drummer's view.
 
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