Two Mixing Questions for a Newbie

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4tracker

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Hey guys

1. How do I get more volume from my mix? I heard recording -6db is ideal. Then bump it up later. But when I put the master fader up and listen on other sources, it is very low.

2. Why does my mix in the daw sound good, yet when I listen outside the daw (on the same exact PC and headphones) it sounds different (usually "thinner" sounding).

Thanks.
 
-18dBFS actually. Usually after mixing of tracks you will get closer to the output goal of 'insert ideal level here'. Your name being '4tracker' this input level may not apply. Are you recording digitally or analog?

There is much that can be done. What that is that your particular music needs is not for anyone else to judge. You could place a limiter on the master bus and - or plus / or not eq. It just depends on what your mix needs and how it is mixed before then. Mastering is a whole other thing that needs to be separated from the mix stage in some regards.

You cannot just limit and boost levels of a mix, if they are not controlled and in place before the mastering stage. Well, not with pleasing results.

Post a mix that you have issue with, and I will give you an honest opinion of why and how to get it more 'volume'. :)
 
jimmys69 said:
-18dBFS actually. Usually after mixing of tracks you will get closer to the output goal of 'insert ideal level here'. Your name being '4tracker' this input level may not apply. Are you recording digitally or analog?

There is much that can be done. What that is that your particular music needs is not for anyone else to judge. You could place a limiter on the master bus and - or plus / or not eq. It just depends on what your mix needs and how it is mixed before then. Mastering is a whole other thing that needs to be separated from the mix stage in some regards.

You cannot just limit and boost levels of a mix, if they are not controlled and in place before the mastering stage. Well, not with pleasing results.

Post a mix that you have issue with, and I will give you an honest opinion of why and how to get it more 'volume'. :)
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Thanks, buddy.

I do analog and digital, but this particular recording is in a DAW. I will try to post an example tonight.
I can get more volume by raising the faders, but then I clip, even with a limiter on (how is this possible?).


That is the issue with volume. The other is that in my daw it sounds full, yet when I play the same exact mix in my media player it sounds thin. Granted, I exported it as a mp3. So maybe it's just due to the quality (192k). In the DAW it's lossless so maybe that's it. But would it make that much of a difference? It is so noticeable.
 
4tracker said:
Thanks, buddy.

I do analog and digital, but this particular recording is in a DAW. I will try to post an example tonight.
I can get more volume by raising the faders, but then I clip, even with a limiter on (how is this possible?).


That is the issue with volume. The other is that in my daw it sounds full, yet when I play the same exact mix in my media player it sounds thin. Granted, I exported it as a mp3. So maybe it's just due to the quality (192k). In the DAW it's lossless so maybe that's it. But would it make that much of a difference? It is so noticeable.
Click to expand...

Yep, especially if the mix is off. Trust me man, you will know why soon.

Post up some stuff so we can get a grip on what you have going. I can't really guess without hearing what it is you hear. :)
 
Always export in a full uncompressed format such as WAV, AICC or FLAC, then convert to MP3.
 
This is a simple question but complicated to answer. Some of the faders you raise may have audio that is very bass heavy in the sub range and over-loud the mix bus. The Mix Bus of the Daw is next to useless for summing. And when you have tracks near total headroom of digital audio all jamming into the mix bus its like a 2 lanes of peak hour traffic going into one lane. Hence you get clipping. Faders are just faders.. Gain stageing in the Daw starts at track Gain not fader. Daw faders are shite too. Inserting a Limiter on a master fader will only grab the audio after input to channel. You need to get your tracks to the master bus without clipping down to at least -12 dbfs at the PPM. Then insert a limiter. Again Daws are next to useless for summing. It was actually a lot easy er in the great analog recording era to get great mixes because there was no Daws. They had it easy. Now you need computer and programming degrees to mix in the Daw but then this comes out as square wave washing machine music anyway. Good luck.
 
Synthzizer said:
This is a simple question but complicated to answer. Some of the faders you raise may have audio that is very bass heavy in the sub range and over-loud the mix bus. The Mix Bus of the Daw is next to useless for summing. And when you have tracks near total headroom of digital audio all jamming into the mix bus its like a 2 lanes of peak hour traffic going into one lane. Hence you get clipping. Faders are just faders.. Gain stageing in the Daw starts at track Gain not fader. Daw faders are shite too. Inserting a Limiter on a master fader will only grab the audio after input to channel. You need to get your tracks to the master bus without clipping down to at least -12 dbfs at the PPM. Then insert a limiter. Again Daws are next to useless for summing. It was actually a lot easy er in the great analog recording era to get great mixes because there was no Daws. They had it easy. Now you need computer and programming degrees to mix in the Daw but then this comes out as square wave washing machine music anyway. Good luck.
Click to expand...


What???!! :facepalm:
 
mjbphotos said:
What???!! :facepalm:
Click to expand...

Agreed. 4tracker, ignore Synthzizer. He's spewing nonsense.

Once you finish and export your mix you could simply normalize peaks since you no longer need all that headroom, but your mix may still not be as "loud" as you want it, especially if you're comparing to a commercial recording. To get it louder you would typically use a mastering limiter to lower the peaks and raise the average level. However, you may find that the limiter does bad things to the mix before you reach your target loudness. For example, when the limiter knocks down a snare hit it may cause audible changes to other sounds happening at the same time. In those cases you would have to go back to the mix and limit individual tracks so the mastering limiter doesn't do weird stuff.
 
Thanks guys. I know there is the famous loudness war going on, and I am not into that. It's just that I was having a hard time hearing it with my media player and pc volume all the way up. With both all the way up it sounded normal but not loud. I would think it would be loud with both turned up. It is just a drum and bass. I added an organ last night and noticed the entire mix got louder once I did that. Do mixes get louder as more instruments get added? I redid the bass at -18, too--sounds much better and less noise. I'm too embarrassed to post anything because it's all noodling at this point as I try to hone recording skills.
 
4tracker said:
I added an organ last night and noticed the entire mix got louder once I did that. Do mixes get louder as more instruments get added?.
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Yes. Partly it's because the average and peak levels actually go up, and partly it's because arrangement affects how we hear volume. Sustained sounds, like organ, have higher average levels compared to their peaks, while percussive sounds, like drums and sometimes bass, have lower average levels compared to their peaks. Mostly it's the average levels that we hear as loudness.

4tracker said:
I redid the bass at -18, too--sounds much better and less noise.
Click to expand...

The -18dBFS target is an average level. It's okay for peaks to go substantially above -18 but never too close to 0dBFS.
 
Okay thanks for that. I am going to complete a full arrangement then reassess. Maybe the volume will increase due to the peaks and averages as you mention. It happened with the organ so I imagine it will only get louder as I add more.

A guy on another forum writes this: you should be tracking a DI to something much higher than -18 dbFS... why? because if you're not intending to use this signal DRY, then you intend to put it through a processor..

that processor is going to have its own requirements. For instance, pod farm requires your guitar signal to be "mostly in the green/yellow range", yellow being fairly hot as indicated on the meters inside the plugin.

the people telling you that tracking at -18 dbFS are correct, you should be doing that for things like DRUMS, BASS, and VOCALS. but not for a DIRECT INPUT SIGNAL that is intended to only go straight into a processor.


Is that true?
 
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One more question: I know there are no rules etc, but in general is any form of clipping okay? Like say the mix is fine except the snare hits clip. Is that okay because it happens quickly, or should I try to tame them? Say a few notes on the bass are uneven and cause clipping. Is this okay?
 
4tracker said:
.... For instance, pod farm requires your guitar signal to be "mostly in the green/yellow range", yellow being fairly hot as indicated on the meters inside the plugin.
Click to expand...

Who/where is this expert? Never heard of such a thing. I use PodFarm frequently and never worry about the Podfarm meters at all.
 
Simply normalize peaks eh. There is no such thing as simply normalizing. So back to the individual tracks like I said Mr.

bouldersoundguy said:
Agreed. 4tracker, ignore Synthzizer. He's spewing nonsense.

Once you finish and export your mix you could simply normalize peaks since you no longer need all that headroom, but your mix may still not be as "loud" as you want it, especially if you're comparing to a commercial recording. To get it louder you would typically use a mastering limiter to lower the peaks and raise the average level. However, you may find that the limiter does bad things to the mix before you reach your target loudness. For example, when the limiter knocks down a snare hit it may cause audible changes to other sounds happening at the same time. In those cases you would have to go back to the mix and limit individual tracks so the mastering limiter doesn't do weird stuff.
Click to expand...
 
Is this a numbers game here like youtube? Just because I just joined dont mean shite.
The bottle neck problems of the DAW summing bus are a real issue. LIKE i said you need to have proper gain staging in the Daw.
If you disagree with that then you are the one with the problem. If you dont cut the Mud away Like I said then you have a bottle neck problem. There is an Art to gain staging in the Daw. It starts at the Track gain like I said not at the Fader. Phffft. What a bunch of red necks.

mjbphotos said:
What???!! :facepalm:
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That depends if its analog or digital clipping. Generally Digital is bad. Good analog gear is more forgiving. Use your ears. But going from what you describe as in your mixing in the DAW id say yuk.. hell no... If some disagree with this god help them.

4tracker said:
One more question: I know there are no rules etc, but in general is any form of clipping okay? Like say the mix is fine except the snare hits clip. Is that okay because it happens quickly, or should I try to tame them? Say a few notes on the bass are uneven and cause clipping. Is this okay?
Click to expand...
 
Synthzizer said:
Simply normalize peaks eh. There is no such thing as simply normalizing. So back to the individual tracks like I said Mr.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry if I was a bit harsh, but much of what you've written doesn't make sense to me or Mike (mjbphotos), and I bet not to many here who have a pretty good handle on this stuff. Perhaps English isn't your first language.

Yes, there is such a thing as normalizing peak levels. It's a simple matter of applying enough gain to bring the highest peak to some predetermined level. Of course if there's no headroom left then peak normalization isn't going to raise the level.
 
One more question: say you want all songs on a record to be the same level so the listener doesn't have to vary the volume song to song. How is this done?
 
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