c7sus
Disenfranchised Member
The greatest shine you ever tasted!
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Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
there may be a sense that some are giving you about 'faking it' but I find it equally offensive that you don't acknowledge the many amp fans who have clearly said that whatever works for you is fine .... go with it. And that's what I'm talking about .... imagined insults that you speak of as if every amp guy has hit you with them and it's simply not the case.
Also the thread is NOT about which is better ..... it's about what's going on on live stages right now and really, what's going on in huge tours and in arenas isn't what applies to the majority of working musicians.
As I have always said ........ use what works for you ...... but I don't need a roadie to carry in my Mark V combo nor is it that much more trouble to carry my mark V and a pedalboard than it would be to carry a laptop and the pedalboard I'd need for that.
And I don't use the amp because I'm a dinosaur ..... I use it because I own it and it's paid for and I like it.
If someone stole all my amps and I got a good insurance payment I might go for the Fractal because then I'd have enough money for that.
Quit being such a victim ....... many of us have said whatever works so quit claiming that you're getting insulted by all the mean amp guys ....... you haven't been.
Also the thread is NOT about which is better ..... it's about what's going on on live stages right now and really, what's going on in huge tours and in arenas isn't what applies to the majority of working musicians.
As I have always said ........ use what works for you ...... but I don't need a roadie to carry in my Mark V combo nor is it that much more trouble to carry my mark V and a pedalboard than it would be to carry a laptop and the pedalboard I'd need for that.
And I don't use the amp because I'm a dinosaur ..... I use it because I own it and it's paid for and I like it.
If someone stole all my amps and I got a good insurance payment I might go for the Fractal because then I'd have enough money for that.
Quit being such a victim ....... many of us have said whatever works so quit claiming that you're getting insulted by all the mean amp guys ....... you haven't been.
ashcat_lt
Well-known member
I'd like to say that I agree wholeheartedly with the remarks above re: Yngwie and Vai. Never had any use for them enough to even care how they get their tones. I also agree re: Angus and Slash. I'm a pretty big fan of AC/DC right up til around Money Talks or so, where they became irrelevant. I won't listen to anything after Appetite for Destruction, but I consider it to be a masterpiece album. But honestly, these are pretty conservative dudes we're talking about. AC/DC hasn't changed anything but strings in 40 years. Not saying they should, but they are certainly not the folks I would expect to be on the forefront of the "digital revolution". In fact, I'd submit that it might be exactly because they can afford to do whatever they want, no matter how absurd, that they can continue to fill tractor trailers with Marshall stacks.
I am not one who is going for any kind of "synthy" "homogenized" tone, especially in live playing. I do use effects at times, but especially in live work most of what I do is a guitar plugged directly into something that sounds more or less like a Vox. Okay, maybe a delay pedal to play off of, but that comes before the amp, not in an FX loop or added after for that "studio delay" bullshit.
But, yeah, on the actual topic I honestly can't argue with what has been put forward. In my area, I do see a couple of groups getting away from individual amps and going to an all DI solution like mine, but they are admittedly more experimental in nature. It is true that at this point the majority of rock/blues/country groups that I see are still carrying amps of some sort. And yes, most of these either have or want to have real tube amps. In the local metal acts I'm seeing a lot more things like the Line6 modeling amps around, and in the more "hard working" groups playing regular bar gigs in a variety of genres I'm seeing a lot more of those Roland cubes. Me, I'd rather hear these than those horrible solid state Peavey workhorses that were so popular in my younger years.
I am not one who is going for any kind of "synthy" "homogenized" tone, especially in live playing. I do use effects at times, but especially in live work most of what I do is a guitar plugged directly into something that sounds more or less like a Vox. Okay, maybe a delay pedal to play off of, but that comes before the amp, not in an FX loop or added after for that "studio delay" bullshit.
But, yeah, on the actual topic I honestly can't argue with what has been put forward. In my area, I do see a couple of groups getting away from individual amps and going to an all DI solution like mine, but they are admittedly more experimental in nature. It is true that at this point the majority of rock/blues/country groups that I see are still carrying amps of some sort. And yes, most of these either have or want to have real tube amps. In the local metal acts I'm seeing a lot more things like the Line6 modeling amps around, and in the more "hard working" groups playing regular bar gigs in a variety of genres I'm seeing a lot more of those Roland cubes. Me, I'd rather hear these than those horrible solid state Peavey workhorses that were so popular in my younger years.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
The conversation about tube amp tone has nothing to do with the digital revolution....it survives in spite of it, and it was important long before digital audio.
I think maybe there IS a certain desire by a lot of folks to be at the forefront of the digital revolution...not because of tone, since digital has NO tone on its own, it has to simulate it...but more for the sake of just being there, at the digital forefront, and to a great degree because of some anticipation and unsubstantiated belief that because it's "digital", it must be better...because it's the newest thing, it must be better than anything that was designed back in the 1950s....or some such thing.
AFA the synthy-homogenized tone....I don't say it's something people actually go for, I say it's the byproduct of the digital simulations, and people become use to it, so they then embrace it more and consciously will dial it in.
They are free to enjoy that kind of tone....I just never found any real appeal in it, it's not what I like or look for in guitar tone.
New Guy
New member
Ha! Some passionate views! To quote someone who knows a thing or two about tone(Alexander Dumble", there is something that happens in a tube with the transients that can't be replicated. If you dig a sim, chances are your not that big on what tubes do to tone. Nothing wrong with that, it just means you don't know anything about guitar! Lol (joking). ; ) some guys love the sound of a stack of a '69 plexi with some vintage glass being cooked. I like a '64 Deluxe with some black plate RCAs after they are burning some ozone. For the record, I dig modern amps too. There is some major differences. But ,at the end of the day, unless your playing arenas, you can't turn up any more. Attenuators destroy your tubes, so why not travel light!
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Greg_L
Banned
Most amps these days have something called a master volume, and since most modern amps also get most of their tone from the preamp section these days, turning the master volume down some to bar/club levels doesn't destroy tone like it used to. Also attenuators don't "destroy" tubes any more than cranking an amp does. Power tubes don't last forever. I guess there's a plus for using sims live. You won't have a tube failure with an Ipad. Better bring your battery charger though. Current score....
Tube amps - 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Sims - 1
Tube amps - 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Sims - 1
New Guy
New member
I don't do master volumes, their for the birds! Got to get the speakers pumping or it doesn't sound right. You being a Marshall stack guy, I thought you more than anyone would want to hear the cabs. Of course you could go all Joe Bonamassa and put up some plexi. Or do what Billy Gibbons did, oh yeah, forgot! Lol But he did go back to a cab.
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Greg_L
Banned
On both my 50w and 100w Marshalls heads, running the master on 4-5 is PLENTY loud enough for a full band practice or local bar/club gig. I don't know what kind of libraries and coffee shops you guys are playing, but I'm playing decent sized clubs and bars. Not huge stadiums, but places big enough that a halfstack is not at all out of place. It's also loud enough to make your ears hurt real bad, so I'm pretty sure the speakers are pumping. The reason I like the master volume Marshalls is they don't have be dimed to get the sound I want. As awesome as the 1987/1959 NMV circuits are, they gotta be cranked and then attenuated to be sane. I don't wanna do all that, and I don't wanna use little amps with no headroom. And I definitely don't wanna be some laptop nancyboy. So being the smart, responsible player/hack that I am, I use the right amps for the job. If you don't think it's loud enough to pump the speakers, you're more than welcome to come over and stick your ear in front of one of them.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
You also don't need to bring a 100W 412 stack to a real small bar/club.
There's lower wattage amps that let you run the master volume high, and still not have crazy stage volume.
New Guy
New member
On both my 50w and 100w Marshalls heads, running the master on 4-5 is PLENTY loud enough for a full band practice or local bar/club gig. I don't know what kind of libraries and coffee shops you guys are playing, but I'm playing decent sized clubs and bars. Not huge stadiums, but places big enough that a halfstack is not at all out of place. It's also loud enough to make your ears hurt real bad, so I'm pretty sure the speakers are pumping. The reason I like the master volume Marshalls is they don't have be dimed to get the sound I want. As awesome as the 1987/1959 NMV circuits are, they gotta be cranked and then attenuated to be sane. I don't wanna do all that, and I don't wanna use little amps with no headroom. And I definitely don't wanna be some laptop nancyboy. So being the smart, responsible player/hack that I am, I use the right amps for the job. If you don't think it's loud enough to pump the speakers, you're more than welcome to come over and stick your ear in front of one of them.
Something feels weird about putting your head in another mans cab! Lol I am not a Marshall man myself, but I do dig the Jubilee's! I still hate master volumes, but at least your still manning up with a 100 watt stack. I go 20 watts and crank it. But use sims? Never!!!
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Greg_L
Banned
I admit that the visual appeal of stupidly big amps is something I'm interested in. And they sound awesome so it's a win-win.
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ecc83
Well-known member
I would like to make a few comments on much that has been said from the point of view of a technician but one who basically does not GASt about much of the posturing and waffle here because I am not much of a player and moreover am registered deaf (NOT! I h.T.ADD from working in the music industry!) "Early onset senile deafness". This means I have lost everything past about 2kHz but more than that my "discrimination" is very poor. I can tell a clean amp from a "crunchy" one and that from outright distortion but that's about it.
I have no wish to "spam" but I think the maker I will discuss can easily be worked out. I must quote model numbers or nobody will know WTF I am on about!..So!
Start with noise? It was said that valve amps are horribly noisy beasts? Ain't necc' so!
The Artisan A15/A30/A100 are "all valve" AC heated amps and the 30 in particular has a lot of gain* but it manages a signal to noise ratio of about -50dB ref 30W (all pots at max, input shorted). Ok, it is an expensive, hand built amp of the old school but it is better built than many "booteek" amps at twice the price. To put that S/N figure in context, -50dB is the spec of a decent, non-Dolbied cassette machine, not hi fi but quite acceptable. The DC heated hybrids (chips and valves in pre amp, valve ops) do better reaching the pinnacle in the HT-5 which manages a truly hi fi -80dB below 5 watts or better. Put that another way, at one foot you cannot hear jack!
Of course, plugging in almost any guitar will spoil these figures, often very badly but it ain't the amps fault!
Modelling: The ID series do not simulate specific amplifiers, not even the "house" amps. No, the software simulates COMPONENTS. Valves, Cs and Rs. As I have said before, these amplifiers have been generally well received and in fact have astonished quite a few people. They have also been extremely reliable AFAIK which does not surprise me because the company puts reliability as high if not higher than sound quality on its list of priorities. ( I spent a good chunk of my time trying, in effect, to break the amps!). Don't matter HOW good it sound'ED!
"Might sound good at home or in the studio. Bog useless on stage" No. The ID series were extensively trialed against comparably powered valve amps and always held their own (or were very close. It is well known that a few valve amps actually put out nearly twice their front panel rating.)
I have been told that the company will continue to make valve amplifiers but they have seen the writing on the wall. Valves of decent quality and reliability are increasingly hard to source and will only get worse and more expensive. Any ampmaker must have a good sounding, reliable solid state string to its bow.
*You need to select the input ECC83.
Phew!!
Dave.
I have no wish to "spam" but I think the maker I will discuss can easily be worked out. I must quote model numbers or nobody will know WTF I am on about!..So!
Start with noise? It was said that valve amps are horribly noisy beasts? Ain't necc' so!
The Artisan A15/A30/A100 are "all valve" AC heated amps and the 30 in particular has a lot of gain* but it manages a signal to noise ratio of about -50dB ref 30W (all pots at max, input shorted). Ok, it is an expensive, hand built amp of the old school but it is better built than many "booteek" amps at twice the price. To put that S/N figure in context, -50dB is the spec of a decent, non-Dolbied cassette machine, not hi fi but quite acceptable. The DC heated hybrids (chips and valves in pre amp, valve ops) do better reaching the pinnacle in the HT-5 which manages a truly hi fi -80dB below 5 watts or better. Put that another way, at one foot you cannot hear jack!
Of course, plugging in almost any guitar will spoil these figures, often very badly but it ain't the amps fault!
Modelling: The ID series do not simulate specific amplifiers, not even the "house" amps. No, the software simulates COMPONENTS. Valves, Cs and Rs. As I have said before, these amplifiers have been generally well received and in fact have astonished quite a few people. They have also been extremely reliable AFAIK which does not surprise me because the company puts reliability as high if not higher than sound quality on its list of priorities. ( I spent a good chunk of my time trying, in effect, to break the amps!). Don't matter HOW good it sound'ED!
"Might sound good at home or in the studio. Bog useless on stage" No. The ID series were extensively trialed against comparably powered valve amps and always held their own (or were very close. It is well known that a few valve amps actually put out nearly twice their front panel rating.)
I have been told that the company will continue to make valve amplifiers but they have seen the writing on the wall. Valves of decent quality and reliability are increasingly hard to source and will only get worse and more expensive. Any ampmaker must have a good sounding, reliable solid state string to its bow.
*You need to select the input ECC83.
Phew!!
Dave.
G
Greg_L
Banned
Works for Blackstar ^^^^^^^
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ecc83
Well-known member
Not any longer Greg. I had to leave 2 months ago due to family health problems. I do of course retain a certain loyalty but has absolutely no commercial interest in the company. And do I think they can do no wrong and the "sun shines"? No, absolutely not, they make cockups like eberyone else and some of them have been LULUS and cost them dear.Works for Blackstar ^^^^^^^
I am first and foremost a technician, before amps I was in a company making passive network products (lot of solderers) before that, TV, video, hi fi. and PA.
I have to quote my experiences and figures from Blackstar because I have no others, but I give them, warts and all.
I have no experience with digital systems so I cannot know if their approach is truly novel or not. I do know that there is several decades of conventional amplifier expertise in the firm and they "bought it" software people, but the final arbitor of the sound of the ID series was the MD and a handful of others.
I do not think the "old guard" are going to give up their monster hot stacks anytime soon and neither should they! But Bs' think sstate and software IS the way forward and will keep the two design concepts running in parallel.
Dave.
bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
I think it's funny that the guy who's in many ways the father of the amp sim had written on the cover of one of his records "No synthesizers used, no computers used".
Whatever. I find amps more fun to play through, which is inspiring, which makes me play better (or would if my playing ability wasn't now atrophied beyond hope). And if I have to listen to a cover of some overplayed song at least let me hear it done with some originality.
Whatever. I find amps more fun to play through, which is inspiring, which makes me play better (or would if my playing ability wasn't now atrophied beyond hope). And if I have to listen to a cover of some overplayed song at least let me hear it done with some originality.
XploZiveToyz
All American Un-American
Lets see what MIT grad, Tom Scholz has to say on the subject: Prior to the late 1970s, guitar practice gear tended to produce small and inferior sounds. But then, the MIT graduate and Polaroid engineer Tom Scholz pioneered the Rockman—a pocket-sized headphone amp producing such robust analog effects as compression, distortion, cabinet simulation, chorus, and reverb. This development of course helped pave the way for digital plug-in-and-play hardware, software, and even free apps that today make it possible for a guitarist to instantly harness any sound imaginable—technology that, ironically, Scholz isn’t particularly that fond of. “Don’t get me started on the many shortcomings of digital sound,” he says.
Lets see what else Mr. Scholz has to say on the subject: The Rockman has always been my go-to unit. I try to do everything analog as much as possible, not only overdrive but also analog effects like echo and chorus. It’s impossible to duplicate these sounds with digital technology. Going from analog to digital or vice versa, phase error angle gets introduced, and it isn’t pretty.
Here's what I have to say; Old Fenders, Marshalls, Voxs, and Music Mans! Period! Definitively! I'm not a MIT grad, but I know what works! I own'em and I play'em. And they work! I own some sims, and some of them are nice. But they are reproductions , and that's all they will ever be! Everyone that plays the real deals knows about the "Sweet Spot". That is the place you can stand in relation to the amps and get the best sound. You can't do that with sims.
Lets see what else Mr. Scholz has to say on the subject: The Rockman has always been my go-to unit. I try to do everything analog as much as possible, not only overdrive but also analog effects like echo and chorus. It’s impossible to duplicate these sounds with digital technology. Going from analog to digital or vice versa, phase error angle gets introduced, and it isn’t pretty.
Here's what I have to say; Old Fenders, Marshalls, Voxs, and Music Mans! Period! Definitively! I'm not a MIT grad, but I know what works! I own'em and I play'em. And they work! I own some sims, and some of them are nice. But they are reproductions , and that's all they will ever be! Everyone that plays the real deals knows about the "Sweet Spot". That is the place you can stand in relation to the amps and get the best sound. You can't do that with sims.
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ecc83
Well-known member
" That is the place you can stand in relation to the amps and get the best sound. You can't do that with sims."
Well, Blackstar say you can because the ID series does not "model" complete amps. Again, I do not claim they have replaced valve equipment and neither do they but THEY do believe, as do many others, that a big step forward has been made. Time and people's pockets will tell.
Dave.
Well, Blackstar say you can because the ID series does not "model" complete amps. Again, I do not claim they have replaced valve equipment and neither do they but THEY do believe, as do many others, that a big step forward has been made. Time and people's pockets will tell.
Dave.
XploZiveToyz
All American Un-American
Just checked out some reviews on the Blackstars. Interesting. I'll probably purchase the 60 just as a new toy.
What I think is probably going to happen is that the newer generations of players will come up never having played any of the amps I've alluded to and therefore won't have anything with which to compare. "The only thing constant is change"
What I think is probably going to happen is that the newer generations of players will come up never having played any of the amps I've alluded to and therefore won't have anything with which to compare. "The only thing constant is change"
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Yeah....they've been trying to lose the dreaded tube for about 30-40 years now.
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paulisher
Member
Greg, my ears are ringing just looking at your rig. I do agree with you that a good amp sounds and behaves better than sims on stage. However amp sims have gotten pretty good in the last few years and are bound to get even better. Some of the best paying gigs here in San Diego are at the casinos and at at least one casino here they don't allow guitar amps. You must bring an amp sim and plug it into the board so the engineer can control the volume. I understand that in Nashville it's common for guitarists there to use amp sims in clubs. Remember when we were transitioning from vinyl to CD and audiophiles were complaining about the loss of warmth and character we had with our cherished records. I don't hear anyone complaining too much about CD's any more, we can bitch about itunes and internet radio instead. Maybe we have just given in to the convenience of it all. Maybe our ears are slowly becoming accustomed to digital, hyper compressed and overly distorted music.