Need suggestions for Hot Rod DLX 212 improvements

thebigcheese

thebigcheese

"Hi, I'm in Delaware."
So here's the deal. The frontman in my band has a fetish for Fender amps that the bassist and I (who are kind of tone snobs, I have to admit) have never really understood. For a long time, he was convinced that his Frontman 212R was fantastic. It was only after months of badgering and the Frontman finally starting to die that we convinced him to get a tube amp, and the Hot Rod Deluxe 212 was what he wanted. The problem is, he's not that great a player and he has a Gibson Les Paul Studio from a not-so-great year, and right now his tone is just mud. Trebly, yucky mud. Given that he hasn't even finished paying off this amp yet and will probably never want anything else (good tone to him seems to just mean he can hear himself), what are some things we can try to improve his tone to be more articulate and clear?

We are currently trying to get him to get a new guitar. He really likes the look of Teles and I think that might help a lot, as playing my Strat seemed to improve his tone in that I could actually hear what he was playing. Has anyone tried any upgrades to the amp itself that have yielded good results? I don't know if he'd go for swapping the speakers just because then someone would have to buy them (though I have one 8 ohm G12H, so we could just get one more). I wanted to try it through some of my cabs to see if maybe a closed-back cab would help, but the impedance requirements of that amp are really bizarre (I think it wants a 4 ohm load, last I checked). When I had a Blues Jr. a long time ago, I did the Billm mod to it, though I don't remember how much good that did. I am more than able to mod the thing, if I can convince him to let me.

Suggestions?
 
Well, my ears may be more like your front man's than yours, but if you can get him to turn the volume on his guitar from 10 down to 9, that might clear things up.

edit: I've also got a Blues Jr., which I think is in the same line as the hot rod. It was biased really hot, and I thought it sounded muddy. I changed out a resistor to lower the bias (I think this was described in the BillM mods), and it got a lot better. I still don't like it very much.
 
He is most likely setting the controls wrong. He shouldn't run the drive any higher than about 7 or it will turn muddy. Have him turn the drive down and run a tubescreamer in front of the amp.
 
ocnor said:
He is most likely setting the controls wrong. He shouldn't run the drive any higher than about 7 or it will turn muddy. Have him turn the drive down and run a tubescreamer in front of the amp.
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He actually tries not to get any drive from the amp, so the gain is set pretty low. He often practices on my OR15H rather than bringing his amp to my house for practice, but we did get him to bring the amp to practice once so we could just sit down and figure out a tone. I also sat down with it at GC to just fiddle with it and sent him a picture with my tone settings to see if that helps. I do our mixing and it's really hard to get him to sit in the mix when his guitar takes up so much real estate.

Trust me, we've been trying to get him to just sing as much as possible, but the problem is he and I are the ones who started the band way back when and we're close friends, so I can't just kick him out altogether. And he really wants to be able to play guitar. I know a lot of the problem has got to be his playing and his guitar because he still sounds muddy through my OR15, which isn't a muddy amp at all when I play it. I'm trying to at least get him to stop hitting open D/E all the time when he's playing chords, but a little more articulation out of the amp would help, too.
 
What kind of pickups does the Les Paul have? I'm still thinking a slight roll-off on the volume knob will help.
 
antichef said:
What kind of pickups does the Les Paul have? I'm still thinking a slight roll-off on the volume knob will help.
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We're not exactly sure. It's an early 2000s, so if that's the same as current models, that's a 490R and a 498T. I dig the Burstbuckers in the new satin series, but he doesn't have that for sure. I haven't really tried rolling off the volume or the tone, but that could help. I have played around with pickup height to get what I can out of them. He rides the neck pickup for the most part, so I've been trying to convince him to get a Pearly Gates, my favorite neck pickup. I have some pickups off a PRS SE (no idea what model, though), but I doubt those would be an improvement.

I haven't tried swapping out tubes yet, either, so maybe I should dig in to that before I convince him to let me swap components...
 
I've been playing an SG with 57 Classics. Both the bridge and the neck have this little range from about 9.1 to 10 where there's a significant boost in output and things can get muddy.

Changing tubes may or may not help - if the bias is hot (like my Blues Jr.), then I doubt a tube swap would help. The hot rod is higher in the line - it may have an adjustable bias - the Blues Jr. was fixed. If there's an amp tech nearby he or she could make quick work of it, I'm sure. It's worth noting that I'm spouting off at the mouth without actually having heard anything - I'm just speculating, and feel somewhat comfortable based on how horrible my Blues Jr. sounded at first.
 
Just looked it up on Eurotubes and it looks really easy to adjust the bias. It is adjustable and designed to be simple to change, including test points for a probe. I'll give that a shot, as well as having him roll off the volume a bit. Maybe I can try different caps in the guitar, too, just to see.
 
Its not the amp, it's not the tubes, its not the guitar or the pickups. Its the player. That's my guess anyway.
 
ocnor said:
He is most likely setting the controls wrong. He shouldn't run the drive any higher than about 7 or it will turn muddy. Have him turn the drive down and run a tubescreamer in front of the amp.
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I agree with this. The Fender Hot Rod Deluxe is a good amp although I prefer the 410 to the 212 because it is brighter. Maybe the guitar or the amp is a lemon, I dunno. Sometimes an amp and a guitar just don't agree with one another.

Tubescreamer adds a lot of tone if used properly although like any other piece of equipment, it can be a disaster in the wrong hands. You can try not letting the guy put his guitar on 10 but if he's the kind of person who doesn't listen for tone and only hears volume, he's probably going to put the guitar on 10 no matter what you say. But agree with what other people are saying - I get my best guitar tones on my strat around 7 and on my Rickenbacker around 6.
 
I mean, it is the player, absolutely. The problem is he writes all the songs, more or less, and the band would pretty much just dissolve without him in it. So I'm trying to work with him as much as possible here.

I've never been a big fan of rolling off the volume knob, probably because I get kinda OCD and don't like that it can't click into a specific spot where it can always stay. Drives me nuts. I like to just play quieter, since, on my guitars, I like the tone with the knob at 10. But he only has one level of dynamics, which is loud.
 
ocnor said:
Well that explains the muddy tone. Just rewire his guitar so that the bridge pickup is always selected no matter which position the switch is set to.
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What do you have against neck pickups? It's the best for clean and bluesy drive.
 
Greg_L said:
Its not the amp, it's not the tubes, its not the guitar or the pickups. Its the player. That's my guess anyway.
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^^^^ this ^^^^ a crappy player can get a crap tone outta anything and I've seen quite a few good players that get crappy tone.

It's not the amp ..... a Hot Rod deluxe is a pretty good amp. Very different than a Blues Junior BTW .... both of which I've gigged with.

Using the neck p'up all the time is probably part of it although I have a preference for the neck too .......... but I know how to set my am,p for that.

Look ...... if this guy thought a Frontman was a great amp (shudder) then he's a beginner and doesn't have a clue about amps or how to set them. Sounds like you're basically trying to get a beginner to play way better than he's gonna be capable of.
I understand your motivations and good for you for helping your friend ... but I think you're gonna have to apply a certain amount of "that's just how he is" here.
 
antichef said:
What kind of pickups does the Les Paul have? I'm still thinking a slight roll-off on the volume knob will help.
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not if he doesn't have the amp set up right for that. Rolling off the volume cuts the highs which equals more mud.
 
Have you investigated a change of pot value? (not the weed kind). I do not know what is standard in the gtr he has but a change there may be helpful. 250k vs 500K.
 
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