Getting big guitar sounds (questions)

[miroslav]

Yeah...recording twice is the way for a lot of stuff...but when I do that, I almost always use a different guitar, or amp, or settings on the amp to get that layered feel.
I find that if/when you want *exactly* the same guitar/amp/sound twice, with perfect timing, for panning purposes...playing it twice is almost impossible to get unless you are a robot.

So...if you are looking for the super-tight perfection, you can end up with more smear than perfection when playing twice.
And yes...there are times when you may want *exactly* the same thing twice for delay/panning purposes...where you want that much accuracy with the two tracks. It's not always needed, but sometimes it IS the sound that works, because you get that perfect delayed bounce from L-R of the two tracks.
Of course sometimes that little bit of smearing caused by a human playing twice can also be THE sound that you want and what works.

I just wouldn't always exclude or include one or the other approach as any SOP.
I don't have a totally negative view of the split/pan/delay approach, and I have used it enough times to know it can work, but it always depends on the song and what you want.

That said...specifically for a "bigger guitar sound"...I would go with the playing twice and chanhing of amp/guitar/settings.
The split/pan/delay I would use more for effect type purposes.

 

[RAMI]

So...if you are looking for the super-tight perfection, you can end up with more smear than perfection when playing twice.

Really? Have you honestly ever had this problem or are you just talking hypothetically for the sake of argument?

.there are times when you may want *exactly* the same thing twice for delay/panning purposes...

Like what a delay does?

for a "bigger guitar sound"...I would go with the playing twice

Sigh......yup. There seems to be a lot of wasted ink in this thread.

The split/pan/delay I would use more for effect type purposes.

Right. Delay effect, just a delay is desugned to do.


Play it twice or use a delay. Everything else is just people playing "Devil's Advocate" while finally admitting that palying it twice is always the best way to go.

 

[RAMI]

Christ. Good thing I said I didn't have the energy to participate in this debate again....right before I participated in a debate about it again.

OK, I've made my point and I'm out........Starting now!

 

[Greg_L]

Play it twice or use a delay. Everything else is just people playing "Devil's Advocate" while finally admitting that palying it twice is always the best way to go.

This x 1000000000. Everyone friggin knows that copy/paste/pan/shift is crap. They just wanna bloviate.

 

[miroslav]

Play it twice or use a delay. Everything else is just people playing "Devil's Advocate" while finally admitting that playing it twice is always the best way to go.

Not sure what counterpoint your are making here...?
I saying the same thing...sometimes you play it twice and sometimes you can pan/delay a split/copied track for a different kind of effect.

I'm not admitting that playing twice is *always* the better way to go.
I'm saying that both playing twice and/or splitting/delay/panning has its uses and that the "never split/pan/delay" view is just something that has emerged on the interwebs as a kind of go-to answer every time someone mentions splitting/copying a track.

I did say that for *fattening* guitars, playing twice works better, but again...if instead you want to get an exact L-R "bounce" on a set of panned tracks, and not just a layering/doubling of sounds, playing it twice will NEVER be exact, and yes, there are times when exact is what the song calls for, where you want to use the delay bounce as part of the rhythm/pulse of the song....usually timed to some fraction of the BPM.
Do you disagree with that?

I'm not saying either is *always* right...or wrong.
There's no "Devil's Advocate" in my comments...I've used both and both can work.

 

[Greg_L]

Miro's got his always-right debate machine fired up.

 

[miroslav]

And as usuall...you also got yours!

The funny thing is that we ARE in agreement about fattening guitars...playing twice works better.
So I'm not sure what counterpoints you are making...?

I'm only saying that *apart from that*...there are times when you can use the split/pan/delay method for other things, so it's not necessarily always a "never do this" situation.
Panning/delaying has it's uses and you can find it in recorded music all over the place, going all the way back to the slap-echo.

 

[Greg_L]

This is the only aspect of recording that I wont budge on. I'm a hardheaded person by nature but I keep an open mind with recording.......except when it comes to making bigger guitar sounds by duplicating tracks. That's baloney.

 

[miroslav]

.......except when it comes to making bigger guitar sounds by duplicating tracks. That's baloney.

Greg...not for nothing, but did you even read my entire first post?

Again, we ARE in agreement (as in, I'm not debating THAT point with you or RAMI) ....bigger guitars = playing it twice!

I was only adding/expanding on the discussion about splitting/panning/delaying since it was mentioned in the thread...and I'm saying that there are times it can be used and it works for other things, depending on the song and what you want in the production.

Are you saying that spllitting/panning/delaying of tracks should NEVER be used for any type of productions....?

 

[Greg_L]

Greg...not for nothing, but did you even read my entire first post?

Hell no. Didn't read this one either. But I read the THREAD TITLE. And then I saw you making long posts, so I knew what was going on.

For guitars, the topic of this thread, copy/paste/pan/shift is garbage. I say it, and stand behind it.

 

[Steenamaroo]

I'm not knocking anyone here, but for me the rare exceptions or fine details of a subject aren't helpful sometimes.
They just serve to allow a noob to perpetuate bad advice or mythology.


If you had a dollar for every post that started "I read somewhere <insert bullshit here>" you'd be doing ok.
It's not that the advice was wrong; It's just that the noob takes the easiest option to the bank, almost every time.

I'm not saying the OP is this guy, but how many noobs posts start with 'what is the easiest/cheapest way to......'.

Everyone wants a magic button, and for me, it's healthier to say there isn't one. Just record your guitars twice.


I mean, ask me if time travel's possible, then ask Steven Hawking.
Which one of those answers is of practical use to average Joe?

 

[Greg_L]

I'm not knocking anyone here, but for me the rare exceptions or fine details of a subject aren't helpful sometimes.
They just serve to allow a noob to perpetuate bad advice or mythology.


If you had a dollar for every post that started "I read somewhere <insert bullshit here>" you'd be doing ok.
It's not that the advice was wrong; It's just that the noob takes the easiest option to the bank, almost every time.

I'm not saying the OP is this guy, but how many noobs posts start with 'what is the easiest/cheapest way to......'.

Everyone wants a magic button, and for me, it's healthier to say there isn't one. Just record your guitars twice.

This x 100000000000000000000 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Steenamaroo]

This x 100000000000000000000 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yeoooooo.

 

[Justsomeguy]

Everyone wants a magic button, and for me, it's healthier to say there isn't one. Just record your guitars twice.

My colleagues and i keep joking that the next version of Logic will have a big red button filling most of the screen that just says "Do it of me NOW!"

And the comment on "practical answers" is one of those points that often get's missed, and is sometimes the reason that googling a question can raise more questions than it answers.

I'm very open minded on 99% of all recording and mixing techniques and will try everything once but, like Greg, double tracking guitars is the only thing i won't easily budge on. i've only done one record where the guitarist was ferociously adamant that he didn't want to double track the guitar. we had a big "debate" about it and in the end i agreed, through gritted teeth. the end result; well, the band were disappointed that the guitars lacked the power that they were expecting, especially when compared to big rock records. my answer; "why not try double tracking the guitars?". we got there in the end and all were very happy with the results

 

[miroslav]

Hell no. Didn't read this one either. But I read the THREAD TITLE. And then I saw you making long posts, so I knew what was going on.

For guitars, the topic of this thread, copy/paste/pan/shift is garbage. I say it, and stand behind it.

Oh..yes...the "THREAD TITLE" .
I forgot that threads are only limited to only that here at HR.
Hey, if we all had a nickle every time a thread expanded/segued or just plain went off-topic of the original thread title...
...we would all be sitting on a yacht having boat drinks!

Let's put aside now the "fattening of guitars" discussion...we've agreed from the start that playing twice works best for that, so there is nothing more on that subject here, and no need to keep repeating it.
We all agree and I think the OP gets it.

I'll try again...this is now a secondary/side discussion to the thread title topic, so maybe we can move on.
Does anyone think that splitting/panning/delaying of tracks should NEVER be used for any type of productions....?

It just seems that sometimes people have a knee-jerk response when someone mentions splitting/panning/delaying of tracks, when actually it is a production technique that gets used a lot and has been used for years and works for certain things but not for all things.
If we need to start a new thread so it doesn't clash with the original thread title...we can do that.

 

[Steenamaroo]

It just seems that people have a knee-jerk response any time anyone mentions splitting/panning/delaying of tracks, when it is a production technique that gets used a lot and has been used for years and works for certain things but not for all things.

I can't recommend it for fattening guitars, and for me, a thread like this does benefit from staying on topic.

I don't make the rules though. That's just my opinion.

I do have a kneejerk reaction to it, mostly because there's an entire generation of 'producers' who's secret weapon is duplicating the kick drum because they read it somewhere and failed to understand what was meant.

 

[Greg_L]

Oh..yes...the "THREAD TITLE" .
I forgot that threads are only limited to only that here at HR.
Hey, if we all had a nickle every time a thread expanded/segued or just plain went off-topic of the original thread title...
...we would all be sitting on a yacht having boat drinks!

Let's put aside now the "fattening of guitars" discussion...we've agreed from the start that playing twice works best for that, so there is nothing more on that subject here, and no need to keep repeating it.
We all agree and I think the OP gets it.

Yeah excuse me for being on-topic instead of spinning off on tangents just so I can have something to post.

I'll try again...this is now a secondary/side discussion to the thread title topic, so maybe we can move on.
Does anyone think that splitting/panning/delaying of tracks should NEVER be used for any type of productions....?

I do. I think it's a shit technique for lazy people and it never sounds good.

It just seems that sometimes people have a knee-jerk response when someone mentions splitting/panning/delaying of tracks, when actually it is a production technique that gets used a lot and has been used for years and works for certain things but not for all things.
If we need to start a new thread so it doesn't clash with the original thread title...we can do that.

Smug much? It's not a knee-jerk reaction at all. It's what should be the normal reaction to a stupid "technique" that gets mentioned way, way too often. You keep mentioning the rare, odd, special occasion that this technique could be used, but the reality is that no one ever asks about those, and even in those instances there are better ways. People ask about bigger guitars or fatter vocals, and duplicate/pan/shift is not a good way to do it. Instead of covering your ass by trying to cover all the bases, just be real. Stand up for something instead of halfassedly defending everything. You know I'm right.

 

[Greg_L]

I can't recommend it for fattening guitars, and for me, a thread like this does benefit from staying on topic.

I don't make the rules though. That's just my opinion.

I do have a kneejerk reaction to it, mostly because there's an entire generation of 'producers' who's secret weapon is duplicating the kick drum because they read it somewhere and failed to understand what was meant.

I'm not old enough to know the 60's and 70's, but I bet back in the days of actual tape and people actually knowing how to play and get good sounds from their equipment, they didn't copy/pan/shift very often, if ever. Maybe they did, but I don't see it. This halfassed technique seems to be custom tailored for the digital age. It's just too easy to do. Thanks technology.

 

[Justsomeguy]

i couldn't find the exact bit as i'm lazy and it's a long video but, even this clip from the Classic Album series making of "never mind the bollocks" shows how many rhythm guitar tracks they used. there's a couple of tracks with no bass guitar on that album, just track after track of thick, tight guitar



(about 6 minutes in there's a bit where the producer brings up all the guitar tracks on the desk)

so, like greg, i'm not old enough to know exactly what they did in the 70's (and was only a tiny tiny kid in the 80's so dot have any experience of what they did 30 years ago) but for one of the biggest and most influential records ever made back in 1977 it was the case that they at least double tracked guitars!

 

[RAMI]

Well, I have't read anything in this thread since my last post, because I can probably guess who said what, and it's most likely going around in circles.

But I'll just re-iterate.

99.99999999% of the time, if you want bigger, thicker, more present, fuller, "warmer", better sounding, doubled,and/or richer guitars or vocals........RECORD TWICE.

For the other.0000000000001 of the time, use any one of these:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=digi....,cf.osb&fp=c9cf28cdc2b7590a&biw=1067&bih=517