Starting my $500 studio: Classic question, no answer found.

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LmnLm3

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((SORRY FOR THE LONG POST!))

So I've been googling for weeks, and this isn't even that large of a purchase. But i am on a very very tight budget. I'm not a school kid, but that doesn't mean i have money for gear.

I am a cellist, and composer, and started recently producing hip-hop and electronica in addition to songwriting (mostly on Ukulele)

SO

I have OSX running on PC hardware, with the DAC onboard giving me 24bit 192kHz. Nothing to sneeze at, right? Especially with CoreAudio and not needing Asio4All.

So I'm thinking to start with a mixer instead of an interface (maybe wait for USB3.0 interfaces to come out - I have no FW ports...) Behringer 802 for now? How sorry will I be? I have read through many many threads about the horrors of Behringer, but if ALL units were that bad, they would go out of business pretty quick I figure...

So computer line out to tape in (routed to control room) tape out back to line in on computer for recording. Or main outs? Then monitor from the mixer.

How are Xenyx pre's compared to interface pres (in the sub-$200 range) I figure they must be about the same...

Onward:

If I'm doing this, what mic(s) should I want if i want to record Ukulele, cello, vocals, and some samples to arrange percussion (like sample cajon hits, or whatever whatever I come up with creatively)?

ALSO (and I'll post another thread perhaps if needed)

Any suggestions for midi controllers? I use Reason 5 right now (and Reaper for audio, but hope to upgrade to Reason 6 soon....depending....budget.....)

I had an Alesis Q49 but it had an unfortunate accident.... Now I have nothing. Had a Novation Launchpad (used it for Traktor 2 Pro) but returned it (was using it with Automap for Kong drum designer, so I might need 16pads)

My TOTAL budget is $500 and all I have is a computer and headphones (AKG K240s) Somebody give me some DECENT options? Need mic(s), pres, way to get audio to computer, monitors (do I NEED them?), midi keys, midi pads, maybe control surface (transport, knobs, faders. Shouldn't have gotten rid of the nanokontrol.... dreamt of motorized faders,...)

THANK YOU!!
 
I would probably say the Behringer 802 into your sound card is probably NOT a good plan. I'm not sure if more people would make fun of you for the Behringer mixer or for using the built in sound card. :P (That was pretty much my plan when I was starting out too though...)

I'm not really an authority on decent interfaces (I got a MobilePre USB... not that great at all), but I think you will be happier with one than you would be with the cheap Behringer mixer.

Always remember to leave room in your budget for cables and stands; those can add up.

What version of OS X do you have on your hackintosh?

P.S. Welcome :D
 
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What do you NEED? well here's an overview of the cost of building a home studio

Don't bother with the behringer mixer, it's quite noisy and not very versatile as a mixer. And there's no point at all waiting for a USB 3.0 interface when you're only recording a couple of channels. If you wanted a WAY bigger channel count then maybe but in short, a 2 channel USB interface will be more than adequate. (Cheapest decent one is the Lexicon Alpha at about $75)

Midi controllers are massively varied, so you either need to be more specific or just Google it yourself to find something you want. midi mixer? midi drum pad? midi keyboard?... you won't be able to afford all of them in that budget. I would suggest you get a behringer bcf 2000 which does indeed have motorized faders, and is bout $170.

Mics, an sm57 is probably the obvious choice as it's so versatile and relatively cheap (about $135)

For cello and vocals, it would be nice to have ea condenser mic, but I don't really know what to suggest that would be worth buying in the remainder of your budget.

If it were my cash, I'd get the Lex Alpha, an sm57, and a bcf2000 plus mic stand and cable if you don't have them!


Hope it helps
 
If none of your Googling brought you there already, might I strongly suggest Tweakheadz' site, specifically his "Rigs" link...

How to Configure a Recording Studio Rig

Rig #1 would probably suit you just fine.

I'd forego the SM57 suggested above (though it's always a good mic to have around) for now since you're recording acoustic instruments + vocals mainly, and go for a large diaphragm condenser mic.

You really don't need a mixer. Just get a good interface with XLR inputs (two will do you just fine) and mix in the box.

Do you NEED monitors? Not to start off with, not really, but your mixes will suffer without them. Keep in mind even if you have monitors to begin with, your mixes will more than likely suck as you learn how to record and mix. Just mix on headphones for now and save up some cash for a good quality pair of monitors (this is where the budget begins to build) Be prepared to remix and remix and remix though as you listen on different setups.

MIDI controllers...I think another area where you can get by with skimping a bit. Especially with a $500 budget to consider.
 
True, tbh I didn't actually think much about just having a large diaphragm condenser instead of a '57. (I think the '57 is ingrained in the new-home-studio auto-answer bit of my brain)
Maybe you could look at an Audio Tech AT2050 or AKG C214 would work if you can squeeze it into the budget.
 
cobaltaudio said:
True, tbh I didn't actually think much about just having a large diaphragm condenser instead of a '57. (I think the '57 is ingrained in the new-home-studio auto-answer bit of my brain)
Maybe you could look at an Audio Tech AT2050 or AKG C214 would work if you can squeeze it into the budget.
Click to expand...

Nah, the SM57 is a solid choice, but I think it's best for after you gain some experience and learn more about gain levels and what not. Starting off with a gain-hungry dynamic might turn some people off (I know it was a major headache when all I had was a dynamic mic for vocals). I've learned what my LDC (AT 3035, FYI) can do...both what it can do right and wrong, I know it works beautifully for my softer music but when I need to belt out the tunes, I sometimes need to back off it so much the proximity level fluctuations in my vocal track are ridiculous. So now I'm looking to add an SM7B (and probably a preamp to go along with that) to the locker.

A condenser mic also gives you more gain headroom (probably the wrong terminology) to play with when recording acoustic instruments and vocals. Useful for budget preamps that will introduce noise really quickly.
 
Wow, thanks for all the quick replies!

To try to answer most questions to clarify:

I am running 10.6.8 (and don't plan on going Tiger any time soon....)

It's a brand new PC I just built with a fast-enough i5 2500k and the onboard (I know the word onboard is faux pas) audio IS high quality and very low latency... If I have 24 bit and a high sample rate (even if I leave it at only 96kHz) and get an audio latency of less than 10ms (5-8) then what is so bad about built in audio? (btw, I'm doing solo work now, so I don't care if people see it and laugh)

I was also looking at the makie vlz3 series and the soundcraft notepad series if their preamps are better - I figure I already have decent conversion, so why go with an interface if I can get decent pre's for less money?

The reason I was looking at mixers was because I looked at Propellerhead's Balance interface and it reminded me of a mixer (it's way expensive and I'm not getting it, but it got me to thinking...) I was going to go with a fast-track pro or somesuch then thought mixer might not be so bad.

Yes, I have read ALL of Tweak's site. Multiple times. That's been my go to site for general info that I can read without asking. I looked at all the "rigs" and all combinations of gear within. He has rigs without mixers that use cards like audiophile 24/192 or maybe it was a 2496 idk but my built in stuff is pretty close to that, that's why I was thinking of saving $100 and using a mixer for my pre's.

As for midi controllers, most of my work will probably be in midi so keyboard is a must, and not sure what the general consensus is on the usefulness (or the necessity) of pads and faders/knobs. Think keystation vs oxygen vs axiom. (not that I'm getting an m-audio unless it's an oxygen perhaps...) Do you guys dramatically prefer motorized faders if you're using faders at all? I hate having a fader in the wrong spot then I nudge it and it jumps bc I was using it on a dif. track or device earlier, you know?

Thanks for the link, I'll check that out about basic studio.

As for mic, I have a broken 57 that I might send back and for $50 they send me a new non-retail packed one.

Also have an EV PL84 that I got for free but that's for live use, right?

I was thinking of condenser but didn't know if I should get a single LDC (omni? cartoid? switchable? fig8?) or stereo sdc or if it matters - I guess for vocals the LDC is more important but I could get stereo mics later if I feel I need them (the $500 is the budget for now - in 6 months I'm sure I could add to the setup)

I know this is a million things at once, and I was so tired last night that it kind of all poured out. Sorry about that. But since I got so many responses, I'll see if this thread can just run with it.

Thank you all so much for your advice!!
 
Their are very few motorized fader controllers within your budget
Any other mixers or controllers with motorized faders and the ability to
mix back thru it in the analogue domain are WAY beyond your budget.
Youre wasting your time dreaming with a $500 budget.

Get a 2 channel interface like a mackie blackjack, and a condenser mic like an AKG perception 420 or a dynamic mic like shure SM7B.......and youre over budget.

and you still need cables.
 
I'm not looking at the 420. I'm looking around $100 for an LDC (project b-1 or AT2020 perhaps)

Considering that the LDC would be $100 range, are behringer pre's still that bad? I don't care about the horror stories of esd or pots failing.

Unless someone can explain why my DAC that is on my motherboard (a Gigabyte GA-Z68-MXD2H) is such a terrible idea, I don't see why it would be so bad to get, say, the soundcraft notepad 124 for $70 and have enough pres to do a close finger/breath mic, stereo ortf, and a room mic for my cello all at once. Or even a Mackie 402 and do what I can with 2 (I wouldn't feel that limited with 2 I don't think)

If I get a mixer with decent pres and want to upgrade my conversion later I can get a converter or an interface without pres (saving money on the conversion) and keep the mixer if the pres are decent.

Just like Tweakz guide describes in multiple places.

I have 1 boom stand and 1 cable, I'll pass on the monitors and use the AKG K240s for monitoring and mixing (fairly flat, and 15Hz-25kHz is plenty of range)

Back in the day I used an MXL V63m into an ART tube and 1/4 out to a mini-adapter into the line in on my old PC with a much lesser sound card, and while it didn't sound like I went into a pro studio, I don't have that expectation so that's ok. Put great stuff into fair gear and you can get a good track. GIGO though.

Let say now that I don't need a full studio right now as that link had a large interface and many mics - it was for recording a full band, and I won't record drums, so I don't need the kit mic set, and I don't need 8 pres. I also don't have a FW port so I can't use any of those interfaces.
 
buying separately for around 475 you can get a saffire pro 24, studiopro3 monitors, a v63m, 3 xlr cables, and a boom. Musician's friend has this as a pack for 400.

I don't think I need that large of an interface, and if I skip the monitors all together, it looks like this is doable for under 500...

Amazon has the AT2020 for around $60, I can get a soundcraft 102 for $50, rca cables for less than 10 total, extra stand and cable for 25 (a set that would come with a cheap mic kind of deal) and that gets me to 135 up to my soundcard. with a Q49 for $80 and an LPD8 for $45 I'm at $260. Add a pair monitors for $150 and I have it under budget.

If I go with a fastrack pro (lower sample rate than my built in DAC) instead of a mixer, I still get 2 pres but it's 160 instead of 60 which puts me pretty close to my budget.

Still feels quite doable...

REAL question is this - why is my onboard DAC that bad, and why are behringer pre's that bad (or soundcraft for very similar price)?
 
Presonus Audiobox $150
Presonus products are rock solid. I've owned 4 and I've loved everyone of them.

GLS ES57 $40
This is an awesome SM57 knock-off. I've got 3 of them and a Shure SM57. They hold their own.

M-Audio Oxygen 49 or similar $160
I've never used this midi keyboard or any midi keyboard, but it gets good reviews.

AT2020 $99
Lots of good stuff about this mic. I personally use a Studio Projects B1 ($119) which I'm happy with.



That's $450 total. That leaves you about $50 for cables, stands, etc.

Now those are all new prices. I would recommend buying used and probably cutting your costs by at least 25%.
 
thanks for the tip on the GLS mics - didn't know about those! Might pick up a 57 and the AT2020 that would be 100 total from amazon... done and done!

Still really need to know why I should not be using my built in soundcard...

Also, on my mb I have no PCI slots, only PCI express x1 (and x16 but that's only for gfx, right?) so if I'm looking at replacing my DAC I might rather get a pci express card... I'll look into what I could afford and what capabilities they have, but really, only if I need to.

So somebody tell me - why should I NOT use my onboard sound?
 
LmnLm3 said:
If I go with a fastrack pro (lower sample rate than my built in DAC) instead of a mixer, I still get 2 pres but it's 160 instead of 60 which puts me pretty close to my budget.

Still feels quite doable...

REAL question is this - why is my onboard DAC that bad, and why are behringer pre's that bad (or soundcraft for very similar price)?
Click to expand...

It probably looks really suspicious that no one has really tried to answer this yet...

So I'll dance around that first and instead address your comment about the lower sample rate.

From 16 vs. 24 bit Audio Recording Demystified
Replacing your preamp and converters with better ones will give you more of a sonic difference at 44.1 that recording at 96khz will.
Click to expand...
What about the 192khz rate? Ok, let me get you to think of how audio interface manufacturers plan to get you to buy their products. One company comes out with 192 then they all feel they have to or they will lose sales. Its hype in my opinion. If you want to fill up hard drives faster, go ahead and use it. We have debated this long an hard on the forums. In the end, no one can tell the difference.
Click to expand...

Everywhere on forums like this, people say that your onboard sound card was probably made for about three cents; it's made from really cheap stuff. Sure, they have high numbers for that bit depth and sample rate stuff, but that doesn't mean they're good.

While the Audiophile 2496 and Audiophile 192 are sound cards, they are purpose-built recording audio interface cards. They are different from onboard sound or gaming sound cards.

I haven't used OS X, so I don't know how Core Audio handles sound, but even with a crappy interface, actual ASIO drivers are easier to work with and lower latency than ASIO4All. That doesn't necessarily apply to you, but it's part of why I would normally recommend an actual interface.

If you are still set on using your built in sound card, I would recommend a DMP3 pre-amp instead of a mixer. It's pretty much king of the cheap pre-amps. I just got one, and I like it, but I'm considering selling it to fund a better interface instead... Some time tonight, I'll see if I can find cables to use it with my onboard sound and let you know how it does.

Edit: PCI express x16 isn't just for graphics, but that's its most common use. I don't really know of any PCI express interfaces actually...
 
It's very suspicious that I can't find an answer to this anywhere on the internet, not only here...

I understand that it is made on a very very mass scale as they go in many motherboards made by many manufacturers. I could have many components that are standard in both Dell and Apple computers so what I have is not specially made - the real question is why do I need something specially made?

If I have only 1 knife in my kitchen, it will be a 7" santuko blade or a 9" chef's knife. Either will work for EVERYTHING that I ever need to do in a kitchen. Would I rather have a paring knife for peeling lemons? sure, but I could do it with the santuko. Would I rather have a carving knife for meat? sure, but I could do that with either the 7 or 9 as well.

Drivers aside, (or lets say on a regular mac pro) why, for BUDGET recording, is the replacement of the audio converter such a priority?

Ignoring sample rate, bit depth, and everything else - recording at CD quality 16bit 44.1kHz, what would be DIFFERENT about an Apogee Duet (or Ensemble, whatever) compared to what comes on the back of a Mac Pro, recording 1 track at a time?
 
LmnLm3 said:
Ignoring sample rate, bit depth, and everything else - recording at CD quality 16bit 44.1kHz, what would be DIFFERENT about an Apogee Duet (or Ensemble, whatever) compared to what comes on the back of a Mac Pro, recording 1 track at a time?
Click to expand...

I can't give you this is numbers and statistics, but i can tell you i recorded like this for a while. I used a small mixer into the pcs built in line input.

The biggest difference i notice between that and using a HQ interface is the accumulative noise.

One track might sound fine, but a session with twenty tracks soon starts to sound like a really bad tape!
 
LmnLm3 said:
Still really need to know why I should not be using my built in soundcard...
So somebody tell me - why should I NOT use my onboard sound?
Click to expand...

Built in soundcard chips are 50 cents worth of garbage, they do not sound good or give good recordings, nor were they designed to.
 
LmnLm3 said:
If I have only 1 knife in my kitchen, it will be a 7" santuko blade or a 9" chef's knife. Either will work for EVERYTHING that I ever need to do in a kitchen. Would I rather have a paring knife for peeling lemons? sure, but I could do it with the santuko. Would I rather have a carving knife for meat? sure, but I could do that with either the 7 or 9 as well.
Click to expand...

arcadeko said:
Built in soundcard chips are 50 cents worth of garbage, they do not sound good or give good recordings, nor were they designed to.
Click to expand...

I know you probably think this sound like a crap answer, but in your example, would you rather have a cheap $1 knife, or a decent one that costs $20 or more (I don't really know what a good knife costs... so maybe it's a bad counterexample).

Or what if all you had was a potato peeler?


Or you could be right. Maybe built in audio cards have gotten good enough more recently, especially if it's just for personal use. Still, I would recommend a DMP3 over a Behringer 802.

Would you mind sharing what motherboard or audio chipset you have?
 
I'm not near that computer atm, but it has a Gigabyte GA-Z68MX-UD2H-B3 motherboard.

I totally forgot Signal to noise ratio!!

The retail box for the motherboard says: "108dB SNR full Blu-ray lossless audio"
Thought the outs very well could be better than the ins, but the ins still list as 24 bit 192kHz 108dB snr so they could be the same...

As for the DMP3, doesn't look like it has tubes, and not sure if anyone has done an a/b against the $30 ART Tube MP studio guys, but at the price of 150-200 for the DMP3, are the pre's worth 75 a piece? Are they much better than VLZ3 pres if I stay away from Behringer and get a Makie? Or yamaha or soundcraft?

If I'm not using an interface, a mixer makes more sense for monitoring, that's all.
 
For a super low budget why not look at something like THIS

record onto this and then drop the files onto your computer for mixing no standalone pre's, mics, converters or cables needed and you have $200 left over for whatever else you might need. It's good enough for sketching out songs
 
I looked at that zoom - it has 2 pres on it not sure if there's phantom power, but the xy mics are condensors and with those 2 pres (xlr1/4 combo jacks) you can use the H4n as an interface. But I'm looking for a larger more hands on solution that will integrate well into my daw.

I use my cell phone for sketches - the LG Optimus (with proper software) has surprisingly quiet mic and I've done cello ideas, vocal sketches in the car, even used it to do some field sampling!

Anyway, looking for something a bit more "serious" (I'm sure serious people use those, but not as their only piece of gear. Rather get a desktop 8 track recorder or whatever if I didn't have a computer)
 
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