The essence of music styles...and should they be always used?

  • Thread starter Thread starter miroslav
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You don't get that from deciding what studio production techniques to use. Why? Because one can still name music types when they're played live, or even when reading the sheet music.

I've given some examples in some of the commonly found traits of reggae and rap, for example. There are plenty of others, such as metal's propensity for walls of distorted rhythm guitar, gothic subject matter, and tendency for vocals that are screamed more than sung. Waltzes, mambos, sambas, etc. all have particular signature rhythmic elements. Several 20th-century American genres have roots in the three chord, 12-bar construction, and are separated more by subject matter or tempo or amount and type of backbeat than anything else. Etc. etc. etc.

I can't imagine your not knowing this stuff already, but I just don't get just what else you're looking for. I do know that studio production tricks like autotune chirps or slapback echos have nothing to do with any of it, for the reasons given above. They only remind us of certain music styles because those happened to be the styles on which they were or are popularly recorded, not because they had anything to do with the definition of or performing of or writing of any given music styles themselves.

G.
 
I'm not talking just about studio tricks...the "chirps" were just an example. I'm talking about the essence of a given style...though the amount of usage the "chirps" have gotten in the last 10 years, it's somewhat become part of the modern R&B production in many cases.

OK...you wanna call it "traits"...I see that as the same thing as style elements of a given music genre...so maybe we are in fact talking about the same thing. :)

That aside...all I wanted to discuss in this thread was what traits/elements went into a given style and how critical they are to the given music genre....and should they always be used if you really want to flesh out that given music style/genre, or how far back can you strip the elements away and still maintain the essence of a given style...?
During production...you CAN do some "style steering" by the decisions you make on tempos, beats, tones, etc...and yeah, those same decisions can be done when playing live...you can play it with a reggae beat or a rock beat...etc...different styles, same song.

That's really all I've been looking to discuss. Yes...you mentioned a few elements or traits of specific styles of music...but I was looking to dig deeper into that.

AFA what should you use, or when to use it, or is it important to even do music in an obvious style...that's not what I was after here, as those things are really up to the individual doing the music, so yeah, I get the "who cares, just do what you want" approach. ;)
 
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Well, I gotta leave you on this one for a while, miro, because I still can't get a handle on just what you're looking for, outside of a full-time music class on the individual definitions of the unlimited number of music styles out there.

G.
 
Glen...I'm not looking just for "definitions" or "training" on different styles...:rolleyes:...:D

I was looking to discuss them, and to discuss how much effect the various elements of those styles impact a given genre or not, per song and per production. Not sure why that's not coming across and instead the responses are "who cares"..."do what you want"..."styles aren't important anymore"....etc.

We've spent a whole bunch of posts just trying to agree/disagree if styles/genres even exist anymore, which I found odd, as it's not very hard to notice them from song to song and artist to artist even in today's music.
I mean we ALL use them, either one or a few in any given song...or individual elements of different styles. Sometimes it's "automatic", we just go for a certain beat or sound, other times it's more thought out...but they are there.
It might be more of a consideration for the guys who write/arrange music, and not so much for pure engineers...but the overall production process does involve style/element choices, and I think a lot of the folks here ARE making them all the time as they do their music.

I just thought a discussion on those choices of style essence and the individual elements would be interesting, and how those things are used to shape a song and a recording production.

Maybe not...? ;)

Oh...and I'm not asking or expecting just you to keep posting back. I mean, if it's not a discussion that interests you, no need to frustrate yourself responding back. I'm not trying to make this hard/complicated...maybe I just wasn't being clear enough on the focus of my thread. :)

Thanks!
 
miroslav said:
Glen...I'm not looking just for "definitions" or "training" on different styles...:rolleyes:...:D

I was looking to discuss them, and to discuss how much effect the various elements of those styles impact a given style or not per song and per production. Not sure why that's not coming across and instead the responses are "who cares"..."do what you want"..."styles aren't important anymore"....etc.

We've spent a whole bunch of posts just trying to agree/disagree if styles even exist, which I found odd, as it's not very hard to notice them from song to song and artist to artist even in today's music.
I mean we ALL use them, either one or a few in any given song...or individual elements of different styles. Sometimes it's "automatic", we just go for a certain beat or sound, other times it's more thought out...but they are there.
It might be more of a consideration for the guys who write/arrange music, and not so much for pure engineers...but the overall production process does involve style/element choices, and I think a lot of the folks here ARE making them all the time as they do their music.

I just thought a discussion on those choices of style essence and the individual elements would be interesting, and how those things are used to shape a song and a recording production.

Maybe not...? ;)

Oh...and I'm not asking or expecting just you to keep posting back. I mean, if it's not a discussion that interests you, no need to frustrate yourself responding back. I'm not trying to make this hard/complicated...maybe I just wasn't being clear enough on the focus of my thread. :)

Thanks!
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I think I get what you're saying. For me personally, I do follow self imposed guidelines. I like balance in my own stuff. For example, I don't like having one guitar on one side without one on the other. That criteria just happens to follow the norm. My musical range is paper thin so I just keep things simple and do what I know works. In my own brand of punk/hard rock, it doesn't sound right if you don't follow the "rules", and I'm not interested in being different or pushing the envelope. It's not that important to me. Genres do exist and there are aspects to each genre that define the sound. Like with most country music, you need a twangy guitar in there somewhere, and for some reason most of the male vocalists sing through their nose. It is what it is. It's not country music if it's performed by some black dude barking obscenities over sampled drum loops and big bass drops. Punk music is partially defined by speed, simplicity, and aggression. Hard rock is defined by huge guitars and bombastic drums. Metal is defined by heavy riffing. Modern pop is defined by, well, I don't really know. That shit is garbage. It goes on and on. Every type of music has it's own identity because of the way it's performed and the sounds being used and that's okay. That's what makes it what it is. I don't see how that's a bad thing. It only gets confusing when you start mixing genres, and to me, that rarely works well. But again, just do whatever you wanna do.
 
Yeah...that's more in line with what I was getting at. :)

I know what you mean about punk/hard rock, it doesn't sound right if you don't follow the "rules", and that may be the case for other styles/genres...and that's the "essence" I was referring to (sometimes when you say "rules" people cringe ;) ).

While I think we all impose a "personal" style on top of whatever we do...there is always that "essence" of a style present, and how many elements we use and the manner in which we use them can define a specific style disticntly...or vaguely (intentional).

I do like to try different things with my songs. Like right now...I'm doing a few songs each in a different style...some Country flavor, some Jazz, some Rock...etc...but I'm also looking to keep a certain amount of cohesiveness between them, so the degree of style elements used influences that. If I go too hard in any one style, it offsets the vibe between the other songs.

I was just considering all that and thought it might be interesting to hear how other folks work with their style "tug of war"...or if they prefer to just immerse themselves into one style and keep it straigt-n-simple...just go for the sound, embracing the key elements and totally bringing them out front.
 
miroslav said:
Yeah...that's more in line with what I was getting at. :)

I know what you mean about punk/hard rock, it doesn't sound right if you don't follow the "rules", and that may be the case for other styles/genres...and that's the "essence" I was referring to (sometimes when you say "rules" people cringe ;) ).

While I think we all impose a "personal" style on top of whatever we do...there is always that "essence" of a style present, and how many elements we use and the manner in which we use them can define a specific style disticntly...or vaguely (intentional).

I do like to try different things with my songs. Like right now...I'm doing a few songs each in a different style...some Country flavor, some Jazz, some Rock...etc...but I'm also looking to keep a certain amount of cohesiveness between them, so the degree of style elements used influences that. If I go too hard in any one style, it offsets the vibe between the other songs.

I was just considering all that and thought it might be interesting to hear how other folks work with their style "tug of war"...or if they prefer to just immerse themselves into one style and keep it straigt-n-simple...just go for the sound, embracing the key elements and totally bringing them out front.
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I know exactly what you mean. I don't ever intentionally stray from my own style, but I'll trickle elements of rockabilly or 60's surf guitar music into my own stuff - usually without even realizing it. I love "oldies", and while I can't say that stuff has influenced my playing any, I think it has certainly influenced what naturally falls out of my head sometimes. Still though, I don't think my music can be confused for anything but just dumb rock, and I like it like that. :D
 
It's not a question of interest. I just don't understand the question, and based upon the lack of response from the rest of the board, I'd say I'm not the only one.

You seem to be hovering somewhere between music style and production style. You say you don't want to discuss what makes reggae reggae on one hand, but that you want to discuss what a song has to or should have in it to make it reggae and not, say, country, on the other hand. I don't get how those questions are different.

When it comes to hearing different sound choices making one think "R&B" or "surfer rock" or whatever, that is nothing more than trends in production style preference and nothing to do with the actual music style itself. People who do reggae tend to want to sound like Jimmy Cliff or Bob Marley sounded, for reasons that have little to do with the actual music style itself. When somebody strays from that, or when someone who typically works outside that genre makes it popular, people tend to label it differently. Not because the musical style is different, but because of who is doing it and what radio station(s) play it.

Again, when Eric Clapton covered "I Shot The Sheriff", the general public did not think of it as reggae, though musicians and those in the music racket did. The general response was, "It's Clapton, so it's rock."

I think the premise that the general public knows music style X and IDs it as that same music style when they hear it is a faulty premise, and that therefore being able to ascribe the kind of characteristics you want to here to them is bound for failure. Reggae is reggae on one hand because of it's musical definitions and delineations as mentioned before and which you don't want to discuss here. On the other hand, reggae is often popularly only considered reggae *within context*. It's reggae when Jimmy Cliff does it but its rock when Eric Clapton does it.

When Elvis or the Beatles does something, it's white music, but when Big Mama Thornton or Elmore James does it, it's black music.

I was driving my elderly mother around the other day, and she wanted to hear some easy listening radio. So I put on the Lite FM station in my city. Half the songs I heard were songs that were only heard on the alternative rock station 20 years ago and that the LiteFM station would have never been caught dead playing then. I'm talking stuff like Depesche Mode, Talking heads, Rikki Lee Jones, and so forth. Has the music itself morphed from AltRock to EZ Listening, or has the context of the times changed public attitude and public definition? When I hear "Eve Of Destruction" being part of the Muzak rotation in my local Kroger grocery store (which I have), is it still protest rock, or has the context changed it's public definition?

The premise of, "I know music style X when I hear it" is like the saying "I know pornography when I see it". It's a sliding definition, depending upon who is doing the seeing and hearing, and the context of the times and places in which it's perceived. Unless you do want to fall back on the actual technical musical definitions, which do stay fairly static (emphasis on beat X with a common time signature of Y or a rhythm pattern of Z, etc.), but it sounds as though you're not looking for that. So I have to throw up my hands.

G.
 
For me the 1968 album by The Turtles featuring Flo and Eddie named "Battle of the bands" showed me that a band or artist didn't have to follow the rules of staying in one genre.
It did show me the rules of what each genre of the time was all about and helped me to write in different styles.

If you haven't ever heard this album I strongly suggest it.
 
"Alternative" was too diverse to be taken seriously as a cohesive genre anyway. By the end of the 80s, everyone and his brother were calling themselves "alternative", for no better reason than it was fashionable to be thought of as something other than mainstream. It was really nothing more than the establishment's pseudo-anti-establishment catchall category. A circle jerk of vanities, if you will. What did the styles of Nirvana or R.E.M. have to do with the likes of Talking Heads, the Cure, or Cocteau Twins, or any of those bands' styles with one another? Nothing at all, really.
 
Uh oh, Glen's posts are getting longer and less relevant. He must be getting madder.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
You seem to be hovering somewhere between music style and production style. You say you don't want to discuss what makes reggae reggae on one hand, but that you want to discuss what a song has to or should have in it to make it reggae and not, say, country, on the other hand. I don't get how those questions are different..
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From me, and I think for a lot of guys doing most of their own writting/recording...song style and production style merge without too many defining lines as you seem to suggest exist. Sure for the audience...it's all about the music...and they consciously focus little on the production, though production does influence the final music style they hear.

I never said I didn't want to discuss what makes "reggae reggae" (or any other style)...???
That's EXACTLY what I was trying to discuss and how production decisions to include/exclude certain style elements drives the overall production and final song style/sound.

Sure...you can do things like Greg does and decide at the very start that you are doing *Punk Rock*...period. So, you would then automatically include the key elements (or traits, if you prefer) to force the production to follow a Punk Rock style.
However, with the amount of crossover and mixing of styles that's occurring today more than ever ( by your own admission)...what elements and how one chooses to use them (boldly or vaguely) within a production directly influences that production and final music style.
For many solo songwriters/recordists...songriting, pre-production, recording and overall production becomes a total blur, and so the choices we make (or not) on various stylistic elements are absolutely key in the final music style we hear when the production is finished.

I dunno...I thought that would be a fairly interesting discussion...what people do and what they choose when considering their style directions during a given production...and I think I've been fairly clear about what I was trying to discuss, or at least I think it's become much clearer at this point. :)
 
Greg_L said:
Uh oh, Glen's posts are getting longer and less relevant. He must be getting madder.
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Naaaaa...that's just the aftereffect of putting on the "Lite FM station"....that'll teach him! :D

;)
 
People pick the elements they pick either because they are trying to copy someone or something else, or because they have a personal muse that they are following. It's not that those elements are part of the music style, the choice of music style is just another one of those elements.

G.
 
Yes...I agree...but those elements that they pick drive the music style...or not.
And...yes, everyone has their reasons for picking things to use/do...I've just been trying to get a bit deeper into THAT discussion (why/how/when). :)
 
Greg_L said:
At least it's probably not too loud for him.
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Geez, get over it, child. This is a different thread and different subject.

What is this, "Lets carry a grudge everywhere we go" week? Between you and NYM, you guys could carry a freakin car with your bare hands.

And leave your dyslexia in the cave. We all are tired of your whining about posts longer than one sentence that you can't read because of your mental disabilities.

G.
 
miroslav said:
Yes...I agree...but those elements that they pick drive the music style...or not.
And...yes, everyone has their reasons for picking things to use/do...I've just been trying to get a bit deeper into THAT discussion (why/how/when). :)
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For instance, why would someone get the hare-brained idea to take Dolly Parton's acoustic guitar-driven "Jolene" and make a Paula Abdul-esque dance track out of it? Well, because that song is pretty close to bouncing like a motherfucker already. It just needs a little push over the edge. :D
 
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