What's better, Outboard effects or the digital plugings?

So the only things we're talking about that could be that different are compressors, gates and things that actually emulate hardware.

...and equalizers too!
Of course…you got analog delays, reverbs and a slew of other FX also. :)

If you are using a DAW, hardware tends to be a pain in the butt. In order to use it, you need more i/o and possibly a mixer to route everything. Plus all the cable, patchbays, etc...

Well yeah...though if you're running a hybrid setup, editing in the DAW and mixing OTB...it's really not a pain in the butt at all.
Trying to patch an occasional outboard piece into your DAW, yeah, that's a PITA. I wouldn't bother going that route.

Hardware, OTB and analog...isn't cheap, and it IS about having a specific desire to go that route.
I just don't think that it's as basic & simple a decision as:
software=inexpensive, hardware=expensive...so I’ll just go software since they both do the same thing exactly the same way.
That's what a lot of guys with $300-$500 and big studio ideas think...
 
...and equalizers too!
Of course…you got analog delays, reverbs and a slew of other FX also. :)
You are correct. I completely forgot about equalizers, but the same thing applies to them that applies to compressors. Analog delays, reverbs, etc... are far and few between, unless you are talking about guitar pedals.



Well yeah...though if you're running a hybrid setup, editing in the DAW and mixing OTB...it's really not a pain in the butt at all.
Trying to patch an occasional outboard piece into your DAW, yeah, that's a PITA. I wouldn't bother going that route.

Hardware, OTB and analog...isn't cheap, and it IS about having a specific desire to go that route.
I just don't think that it's as basic & simple a decision as:
software=inexpensive, hardware=expensive...so I’ll just go software since they both do the same thing exactly the same way.
That's what a lot of guys with $300-$500 and big studio ideas think...
My post was more or less coming from the perspective of building a studio from scratch right now. If you have been doing this for 20 years and have amassed all the outboard because you used to run tape, you have a lot more choices on how you want to work.

Unless you are willing to spend $20k on a mixer, outboard, cables, patchbays, I/O, etc... just to get the analog functionality that most DAW's come with digitally, there really isn't much point to going analog. Even then, that's with a lot of 'starter level' outboard gear. You can't get many LA2A's or 1176's for that kind of money, you will be stuck with mid-line DBX/Behringer-type stuff.
 
If I was starting out from zero at this point, I would certainly reevaluate all my purchasing options (heck, I just moved some gear on eBay that was collecting dust :D).

While ITB digital at face value shows a lot more "bang for the buck"...my mindset was, is and probably always will be about having a *studio* and not just the capability to record, edit and mix…and a simple, straighforward ITB setup doesn’t really cover that (which I know, you know, Jay).

Even if I went the ITB route, there's still a lot more to a studio than just a computer and software. To me it means having really decent ($$$) - mics, preamps, monitoring, guitar amps, keyboards and other instrument toys...etc...not to mention the recording space and its appointments...all to go along with that ITB computer and software.
Even without an analog mixer and a bunch of outboard processing gear... that stuff alone would still require a substantial amount of ca$h!

I'm not sure where this mindset comes from, that say with only - $1000 (some think even less) one can set up a "recording studio" with everything that’s really needed...?
Just 'cuz one decides to go "ITB" it really doesn't come a heck of a lot cheaper than going OTB or for a little more, a hybrid setup.
Of course…a lot of the newbs are all buying that absolute cheapest gear just so they can get the most “bang for the buck”…and then they convince themselves that the expensive stuff is just a lot of marketing mojo, that hardware gear is a waste, and that there is no real need for any of the traditional studio requirements to record and mix.

So yeah… it’s about mindset and about budget. I try not to let my budget change my mindset if at all possible…even if it means taking a little longer to get there.

Of course...we all gotta start somewhere.... :)

Oh...one other point.
Seems a lot of the ITB newbs think it's ALL about the computer and the software...and everything else is secondary and not as significant, which is is why so many end up buying the absolute cheapest mics and preamps and other necessary gear.
Its like...once it's in the computer...magic will happen! ;)
 
I'm ITB most of the time - I try to use good components going it, as has been mentioned (and that's all analog stuff, of course).

I occasionally run my mix through some outboard amps for color - I like the results, but I can't tell you that I couldn't tweak my way to the same thing staying ITB with plugins.

Also, I feel a little dumb because of all the conversions - initially A->D on the way in, then D->A on the way to the outboard units, then A->D again back into the 'puter, then eventually D->A when I hear it. The middle two conversions are only there because of my outboard trip (because I'm ITB). Probably not a big deal, and I can't say it has a negative effect on sound (and if it did, mostly likely it would be due to bad cable(s), and I could then do-over), but I get the sense that in order to really get the most out of outboard units, I'd need to stay analog (prolly using tape) as long as I could in the first place, then convert after mixdown. Just a feeling - can't back it up.

Anyway - another voice in the chorus: explore the free / cheap plugs first...
 
Interesting discussion. I have been using plugins for about 5 years now and I like them, but I don't think I've ever been thrilled with one. Can't put my finger on it but a nice analog reverb beats the crap out of any plugin I've ever used.
 
...I get the sense that in order to really get the most out of outboard units, I'd need to stay analog (prolly using tape) as long as I could in the first place, then convert after mixdown...

As has been mentioned, a hybrid setup lets you marry the digital/analog worlds ...and IMO...is the way to go. I don't mean where you just send out a single DAW track to some outboard, analog processor and bring its output right back into the DAW, though guys also do that, and they accept the additional conversion...which may not really be an issue in many cases.
By hybrid, I mean where you have a distinct digital phase and analog phase to your recording setup/process. It could be one of a few ways, but these are the most common.
1. Track analog to tape...dump to DAW for edits/comps...bring it all OTB and mix analog with outboard gear to a stereo tape deck...bring that back into the DAW for mastering.
2. Track to DAW and then bring it all OTB and mix with outboard gear....either to a stereo tape deck or right back to DAW.

I use the first method...though I've also used the second method, and could at some point make that my primary if I decide to permanently forgo the multitrack tape deck, but still mixdown to a stereo tape deck before bringing it back into the digital relm.
By doing 1 or 2...you end up summing/mixing in analog with all outboard hardware processing...BUT, the neat thing is that you can still processing also in the DAW.
I do "spot" processing of small bits-n-pieces in the DAW all the time...but I do all my whole track processing OTB.
You can also do some sub-mixing in the DAW and leave the majority of the OTB mixing for the console. That really depends on your track count and the number of A/D/A converters/channels available to you. I currently run with 24 and I keep my final DAW track count within that number, otherwise I would have to submix some tracks.

That whole setup certainly ain't "gospel"... :D ...it's just how it evolved for me as I went from a pure tape/OTB rig...to some MIDI sequencing added in...to some digital audio added in...and finally to this hybrid setup.
Mind you...that evolution has taken the better part of 20 years…and a lot of $$$ (not bragging, just pointing it out for anyone wanting to go for it).


Yeah...you can do it all ITB and then just hit that final stereo mix with some analog processing to "humanize it", ;) but I think if you really want to use analog gear along with your DAW...the hybrid setups I outlined above are the way to go to get the most out of it all.
Individual track processing is where things really make a difference rather than on the stereo mixes…IMO.
 
Seems we've drifted off course here, haven't we? I think we can all agree that most prefer the sound of a good analog box to digital plugs. I use a 16 channel summing rig with ITB plugs and outboard too, but that's a world that I'm guessing has little to do with izman, our OP.

If I had to guess from the nature of his question izman has a computer with a daw. Probably only two channels of conversion. No plug-ins except the stock ones that come with whatever daw he uses. No outboard gear. No patchbay. I'm guessing his monitors aren't top end, and his room probably has little treatment.

Him asking what would suit his needs for 1000 british pounds, plugs or analog gear is different from the fellow with 8, 16, or 24 channels of conversion, a console or summing rig and a fully outfitted studio.

Telling the OP at this point that analog would be better for him is misleading, unless I'm wrong about his set-up, and gives me visions of this:

izman spends his 1000 pounds on an XYZ compressor. He now wants to use it on his vocal tracks. But he only has two channels of conversion. So he gets behind his rack with his flashlight to connect his new compressor to the outputs of his converters and runs his vocals through XYZ compressor. He'd like to hear what it sounds like in the context of his mix, but he can't because he only has two channels of conversion. So he records the wet vocals to a new track. Now he's back behind his rack with flashlight to take XYZ compressor out of the chain so he can hear his new mix with compressed vocals (If he's lucky his XYZ compressor has a bypass switch so he can skip this step). He now cues up the mix, but it doesn't sound quite right in the context of the mix, so it's back behind the rack to re-connect the compressor... and on and on... you get the picture.

I could be wrong, but this is where I was a few years ago, and it was frustrating as h*ll. Hours and hours of retracking vocals, guitars, drums, keyboards, etc. through a compressor trying in vain to get something to fit. It would literally take me two weeks to mix a song, and when I was done, it still sounded like shite.

Get some good plugs and he can pop a comp or eq on any track limited only by his CPU, and actually listen to what it's doing IN the mix. His songs will take hours to mix instead of weeks.

Once he's learned how to use the comps and eqs, he can invest in an outboard mix buss comp to run the entire mix through. Then maybe some more channels of conversion and some comps and eq's that he can actually use while hearing what it does to the mix.

That's the advice I would give to someone just starting to outfit a studio on a budget.

So, izman, telling you what to buy is impossible without knowing what kind of set-up you already have. If it's anything like what I envision above, I'd get some good plugs first. I'll even recommend a few that I love.

Softtube's tubetech CL1b compressor. As close as you can get to the hardware without spending $2700 for the real thing. Stunningly beautiful vocal comp.

Soundtoys native bundle which includes Decapitator- maybe the coolest plug you'll ever use. Echoboy- IMO the best echo/delay/saturation plug out there. Filterfreak- All kinds of mono and stereo filters for solving freq problems. Panman- Also really cool plug that allows you do do virtually anything you could ever dream of with panning effects very easily without having to resort to automation. Phasemistress- phasing plug that can get really bizarre if you desire.

Waves CLA compressor bundle Versions of 1176 black face, blue stripe and an LA2A comp plug. Very versatile, and sounds good. Again, not the real thing, but it will still put a smile on your face.

Waves API bundle If the mid forward API sound is your thing, this will get you a long way in that direction.

If you have a PCI or PCIe slot, maybe a UAD card and one of their bundles. If I had a PCI slot, which I don't, I'd get this just for the pultec eq.

There's tons of others, and some good freebies too.

So izman, what IS your set-up currently like?
 
Seems we've drifted off course here, haven't we?

..........


Telling the OP at this point that analog would be better for him is misleading...

Nope...the thread is not off course, it's simply evolved into a general discussion, as many threads do.
AFA the OP...no one is “misleading” him.
I'm not telling him what is better for him...I'm simply pointing out the options and how gear decisions are often based purely on budget and personal constraints rather than what is actually the best way to go.
I think the OP had his mind made up long before he ever started this thread...he just wanted to be convinced. ;)

John/Massive Master actually had the best answer. :)

Oh...next time use some patchbays...you won't have to spend so much time behind the rack with a flashlight! :D
 
Nope...the thread is not off course, it's simply evolved into a general discussion, as many threads do.
AFA the OP...no one is “misleading” him.
I'm not telling him what is better for him...I'm simply pointing out the options and how gear decisions are often based purely on budget and personal constraints rather than what is actually the best way to go.
I think the OP had his mind made up long before he ever started this thread...he just wanted to be convinced. ;)

John/Massive Master actually had the best answer. :)

Oh...next time use some patchbays...you won't have to spend so much time behind the rack with a flashlight! :D
Yeah, it didn't take long to figure out the need for a patchbay.

I would say, at least in my experience, that gear decisions are ALWAYS influenced by budget constraints. I use a summing rig because I can't afford a console. I use dbx and aphex and pico comps because I can't afford distressors, fatsos, retros and vintage 1176 and LA2A comps. I spend a lot of time trying to figure out what will improve my sound the most, WITHIN my budget. I'd love a pair of pultec eqs, or even a good set of clones, but that's not likely to ever happen given my budget. So I look at other things that can maybe get me close for less. Plugs won't get you that big console sound, but they'll get izman closer to it than one hardware comp, and in way less time.

So if izman's set-up is as humble as I think it might be, telling him to get a hardware 1176 instead of a good 1176 plug because it sounds better in your studio or mine, although true, COULD be leading him down a path of eminent frustration, as I experienced. I wish someone had steered me towards good plugs, before I ventured into outboard gear.

I get your point that analog rules. I agree 100%. That's why even though way more expensive, people still buy it and use it.

Maybe we're just arguing semantics. I still feel izman's needs would be better served GIVEN HIS BUDGET with some good plugs. Is it the best way to go? Probably not. Is it wise for him? Probably so.
 
I use dbx and aphex and pico comps because I can't afford distressors, fatsos, retros and vintage 1176 and LA2A comps. I spend a lot of time trying to figure out what will improve my sound the most, WITHIN my budget.

.........

Maybe we're just arguing semantics. I still feel izman's needs would be better served GIVEN HIS BUDGET with some good plugs. Is it the best way to go? Probably not. Is it wise for him? Probably so.

Yeah...I've lived that same reality, and like I said, we all gotta start somewhere. :D
Here's the thing though...all the lesser gear I've purchased over the years, while it allowed me to get by and do some work...it never quite hit the mark, and little by little I found myself getting rid of it and buying up a couple of notches.
Sometimes I would sell 3-4 lesser pieces and put that money toward one really decent piece...but you know, it's worth it. All that time I spent jerking around with the lesser gear really didn't amount to a hell of a lot.

I still have some less expensive stuff...but I'm weeding it all out :) because the better gear really does make a difference...though there's some less expensive stuff that works well alongside the higher priced stuff...it's really a matter of figuring out what you have and which pieces are worth spending the extra money on….based on your long-term goals.
If you’re just messin’ around purely for personal amusement your goals will be obviously different than if you are interested in having a more formal studio operation.

Like John/Massive mentioned to the OP...probably the best way to spend that £1000 is on a pair of nice preamps and some microphones...instead of a lot of plug-ins.
I'm not trying to be mean or snooty...but if you look at the OP's recording studio website he's got one MXL 990 listed under "Microphones"…and I don't even see a specific preamp mentioned...so that £1000 really should go towards improving the hardware front-end...rather than the software back-end...IMHO.
 
Seems we've drifted off course here, haven't we? I think we can all agree that most prefer the sound of a good analog box to digital plugs. I use a 16 channel summing rig with ITB plugs and outboard too, but that's a world that I'm guessing has little to do with izman, our OP.

If I had to guess from the nature of his question izman has a computer with a daw. Probably only two channels of conversion. No plug-ins except the stock ones that come with whatever daw he uses. No outboard gear. No patchbay. I'm guessing his monitors aren't top end, and his room probably has little treatment.

Him asking what would suit his needs for 1000 british pounds, plugs or analog gear is different from the fellow with 8, 16, or 24 channels of conversion, a console or summing rig and a fully outfitted studio.

Telling the OP at this point that analog would be better for him is misleading, unless I'm wrong about his set-up, and gives me visions of this:

izman spends his 1000 pounds on an XYZ compressor. He now wants to use it on his vocal tracks. But he only has two channels of conversion. So he gets behind his rack with his flashlight to connect his new compressor to the outputs of his converters and runs his vocals through XYZ compressor. He'd like to hear what it sounds like in the context of his mix, but he can't because he only has two channels of conversion. So he records the wet vocals to a new track. Now he's back behind his rack with flashlight to take XYZ compressor out of the chain so he can hear his new mix with compressed vocals (If he's lucky his XYZ compressor has a bypass switch so he can skip this step). He now cues up the mix, but it doesn't sound quite right in the context of the mix, so it's back behind the rack to re-connect the compressor... and on and on... you get the picture.

I could be wrong, but this is where I was a few years ago, and it was frustrating as h*ll. Hours and hours of retracking vocals, guitars, drums, keyboards, etc. through a compressor trying in vain to get something to fit. It would literally take me two weeks to mix a song, and when I was done, it still sounded like shite.

Get some good plugs and he can pop a comp or eq on any track limited only by his CPU, and actually listen to what it's doing IN the mix. His songs will take hours to mix instead of weeks.

Once he's learned how to use the comps and eqs, he can invest in an outboard mix buss comp to run the entire mix through. Then maybe some more channels of conversion and some comps and eq's that he can actually use while hearing what it does to the mix.

That's the advice I would give to someone just starting to outfit a studio on a budget.

So, izman, telling you what to buy is impossible without knowing what kind of set-up you already have. If it's anything like what I envision above, I'd get some good plugs first. I'll even recommend a few that I love.

Softtube's tubetech CL1b compressor. As close as you can get to the hardware without spending $2700 for the real thing. Stunningly beautiful vocal comp.

Soundtoys native bundle which includes Decapitator- maybe the coolest plug you'll ever use. Echoboy- IMO the best echo/delay/saturation plug out there. Filterfreak- All kinds of mono and stereo filters for solving freq problems. Panman- Also really cool plug that allows you do do virtually anything you could ever dream of with panning effects very easily without having to resort to automation. Phasemistress- phasing plug that can get really bizarre if you desire.

Waves CLA compressor bundle Versions of 1176 black face, blue stripe and an LA2A comp plug. Very versatile, and sounds good. Again, not the real thing, but it will still put a smile on your face.

Waves API bundle If the mid forward API sound is your thing, this will get you a long way in that direction.

If you have a PCI or PCIe slot, maybe a UAD card and one of their bundles. If I had a PCI slot, which I don't, I'd get this just for the pultec eq.

There's tons of others, and some good freebies too.

So izman, what IS your set-up currently like?

thanks guitar zero for some advise. my set-up is pretty much as u described it at the start. I use pro-tools 8 M-powered, a pair of fostex PMO.4n, an m-audio fast track pro and a mxl 990 mic. my room treatment is not a problem.
I have the api bundle from waves ssl 4000 and the regular plugins that do come with pro tools m-powerd 8. thanks:)
 
I have the api bundle from waves ssl 4000 and the regular plugins that do come with pro tools m-powerd 8. thanks:)
If you add a UAD 1176 and LA2A to your SSL bundle, you would have everything I tend to use (EQ and dynamics-wise) in a mix. I agree, you need better mics and preamps before worrying about more plugins.
 
If you add a UAD 1176 and LA2A to your SSL bundle, you would have everything I tend to use (EQ and dynamics-wise) in a mix. I agree, you need better mics and preamps before worrying about more plugins.
No argument here. Good mics and pre's first. Get the sound right to begin with before you start worrying about other stuff.
 
If you have a PCI or PCIe slot, maybe a UAD card and one of their bundles. If I had a PCI slot, which I don't, I'd get this just for the pultec eq.

I have to say I never think of these plugs being software when I use them..i have them mapped out to the rotaries on my PCR for that essential twiddling

since I went the UAD/TC powercore route my mixes and recordings have taken a jump in quality..they just gives you added confidence in what your doing as well, which was an unexpected bonus

cost a bit, Ive four cards + plugs all in all, but its future proofed my set up for quite a bit..and the cards are going for less than one half decent VST EQ now...

Id highly recommend them (if I havent already in this thread and half a dozen others)
 
I have to say I never think of these plugs being software when I use them..i have them mapped out to the rotaries on my PCR for that essential twiddling

since I went the UAD/TC powercore route my mixes and recordings have taken a jump in quality..they just gives you added confidence in what your doing as well, which was an unexpected bonus

cost a bit, Ive four cards + plugs all in all, but its future proofed my set up for quite a bit..and the cards are going for less than one half decent VST EQ now...

Id highly recommend them (if I havent already in this thread and half a dozen others)



KC ..... I had to stop eating my pie and mash to say *yup*. :-)D)










:cool:
 
In my view if you have a grand to spend and don't know what to buy, DON"T BUY ANYTHING. save your money 'til you know what you need!

The problem for a lot of us home recorder newbs is we tend to take the following path, and I'll use pre's as an example

*Start out plugging into on board sounds. Sounds awful buy an interface $200
There is an immediate improvement
*After a while start reading posts online become overwhelmed with gear lust and feel a desperate need for "better" Preamp, don't have much money so buy a DMP from m-audio $200
*After initial Euphoria of being an "Outboard" pre owner realize can't really hear any difference
*More online reading leads to realization one "must have" an FMR Audio RNP $500
*feels like recordings are sounding better but begin to second guess pre as the cause as time, effort and experience have given better recording technique
*Read gearslutz and realize one "Must have" a color pre to give analog oomph spend $650
*mixed feelings about color pre purchase, can't always tell the difference and only need color on some things anyway
*Hold off on more purchases concentrate on getting better technique, gear lust is under control.
*Buy a really good quaility "higher end" pre, hear real improvement in clarity, transients and depth of recording spend $1500

The point is to get to where you ultimately wanted to be you only really needed the Audio interface and "high end" pre costing in this example $1700
To get there, however, we spent a grand total of $3050 messing around buying bang for buck "Upgrades" that actually barely move the needle at all and so needlessly spent an additional $1350 to get no real improvement.
This is of course what the low end manufacturers want us to do as it keeps us spending money on products we don't ultimately need

I think the same is true of plugins.
Learn the ones you have inside and out until you can put your finger on exactly what you need and why you need and get a product that completely fulfills that need
Spending a grand based on what a bunch of random strangers on the internet think may not give you that "Pro Sound" we all ultimately want
Hopefully we all learned our lesson early on and bought based on what we really need but even if that is the case plugins that meet our specific needs and goals may be completely inappropriate for you

The best bang for buck whether you are ITB or OTB is in buying only what you need and not what you don't. Not chasing the elusive magic bullet, spending thousands on "Bang for buck" plugs or gear that ultimately don't give us what we need to get the sound we want.

As a random internet stranger myself my opinion may, of course, be complete bunk too

YMMV
 
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This has got to be the best "read" I've seen in years... excellent points by all, stimulating conversation... just what this forum is about... bravo..
 
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