Help for someone starting out

  • Thread starter Thread starter mojowon
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did I mention groundhog day?


I know you were offering your legendary piece of advice Glen but other than debating the schematics of English I dont think it was what the OP was asking


I understand you protect your profession and some of that maybe through discouragement or these "cold hard realities"..

but Ill tell you this...with half a clue and a set of monitirs it wont take anyone years of experience to get a half decent mix...and for 95% of us, a half decent mix is what we are looking for..sorry if that dissapoints you


now back to the usual channel..this crap is more boring that the shite in the cave :(
 
You get some clown who has gone on the record promising with a Mafia-style accent to follow you around the board and make your life miserable, and let's see just how grumpy you sound when you reply to him.


good grief....my niece has got bigger balls than you :rolleyes:
 
ditto

Everyone who is any good started out by screwing it up, that's how you learn. That applies to most everything.

How many pros got good by taking their first project to a pro studio?

I'll bet most pros started out on crap gear, playing through a cheap home stereo and recording on a $30 cassette deck and it sucked. That, to me, is normal.

Right! People who start off on crap equipment are far better off! if you start off with everything money can buy you have no limitations. if you start with nothing then you have no chance to get the best of what you have. example: "how the F***!!! do i get 9 tracks on an 8 track tape."

its not how good it is its how well you use it. theres no point having the best mic money can buy if you cant use it to its potential. like theres no point having top class plugins if you cant get a professional sound out of the cheapest ones.

We are all on this forum for one common interest any guess what that is???

everyone needs help, give help to those who need it, one day you may be stumped by something which that person my be an expert with.
 
I started out recording on a cheap cassette my Mother got through her Texaco gas card. I used the same cassette tape for over a year - I didn't know you could buy cassette tapes separately. :o

Ten years later I was using a 40 ch Neve and vintage Neumanns.

You never know where your music will take you.
 
Very few people can afford getting "in person" advice from the start.
Yet they can afford the few hundred to few thousand they have already spent on the gear they do have. For the price of a cheapo MXL microphone they can get several hours of help from someone who knows what to do with that microphone that will be of far more value than that microphone and public advice from an Internet message board combined.
Why not just give people some stuff that might help them? :)
Again, please explain to me what is un-helpful about my advice? I'm not discouraging anybody or being un-helpful; I'm suggesting a legitimate way of starting out.

It's ridiculously funny that nobody has any problem with folks who advise him to get help from the knowledgeable by buying books (which can cost just as much money, BTW) or to get advice from people on the Internet (which may not cost money, but it costs a hell of a lot in time and effort), but the second someone suggests that they get help from someone in flesh-and-blood person, where there can be hands-on training and real-time Q&A, and doesn't need to cost anywhere near as much as is often insinuated around here, there is a strong scent of villification against that answer. Have we all become so plugged into virtual reality via the Firewire jacks in the back of our skulls that the real world is now verboten?
The whole band is built around the kick
Including the Praise band that the OP is asking about? I think *at best* that's a gamble. Traditional rock backbeat - or drums at all - often does not drive Praise music, and often is little more than accompaniment.

By coincidence, we happen to be in the pre-production stages of exactly that kind of music in a pretty major project for a local church group, and will start tracking in just a couple of weeks. I can tell you that the kick and even the snare will probably play a rather minor supporting role at the best in this project.

Of course there are different types of "Praise" music, from choral gospel to Christian rock to Muslim hip hop, and yes, in some of them the kick may be more of a rock-type of force in the production. But it is FAR from guaranteed based just on the info the OP has provided so far.

Sometimes holding back on some of the specific advice is better than being in a rush to provide detailed advice based upon biased assumptions. Of course, having an engineer there in person to determine that is apparently a lousy idea....

G.
 
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I'm sure the OP is thrilled with the response he got here. I mean I'd be jumping out of my seat with excitement if the only answer I got was two dudes bickering like an old married couple.

Mojowon,

What I think Glen was trying to ask in his roundabout way was something like this:

"Do you really want to do this yourself?" Because in order to do the things you're asking you'll have to set aside a lot of time to learn how to do it (about as much time as it took to learn to play an instrument). And you're going to have to spend a pretty good amount of money in order to have the right equipment and/or software to make it sound nice. So if you DO want to make this into a hobby of sorts, then there's a few places to look at before you start. You might start at this link which is as simple of a reference as you'll find. But there's a LOT(!) of information there. It'll take you days to read it all.

If on the other hand you just want to get this stuff mixed and don't really want to worry about the nitnoid details that you'll have to deal with to do it yourself...then paying the money to have an established audio engineer to do it for you might be your most economic and time-saving option. And if you really want to learn from someone with experience then learning from an engineer along the way will help you out also.

Can you perhaps elaborate on what your intentions are with regard to the above??
 
At every decision point ask, "How would Jesus mix this?" and you'll be fine..

:D

Good luck.
 
What I think Glen was trying to ask in his roundabout way was something like this:

"Do you really want to do this yourself?"
That is the key question, for sure. And based upon my five years in this BBS, IME, just because someone initially comes in here thinking they want to do this themselves (which is fine, BTW), it doesn't mean they understand what they are getting themselves into. Often when they DO understand that it's not the walk in the park that they have been led to believe it is, it's too late; they've already spent the time and the money. Talk about learning from mistakes; it's a tough lesson to learn that you've just spend a grand or more and several weeks working on that stuff only to find that you actually don't sound like a Rick Rubin record the way you've been led to believe.

All I'm trying to do is help set expectations before they make the final decision. If after hearing that, they still want to go ahead and go it alone from the get-go, more power to them, and when they have specific questions (not , "How do I mix", which is basically what this thread is asking), I'll try to help out when I can.

But if they realize *before* they make the investments that it's not as simple as, "oh, all you need to do is do this and this" to get the results they usually expect, then they have been saved unnecessary time and money.

But either way, I still think that getting at least a start by getting a little hand-holding experience under their belt is probably not a bad idea for anybody starting out for the first time. Is it necessary? No, not at all. Dinty didn't need it and neither did I. But I can't speak for Dinty, but I would have *loved* that opportunity back when I started out.

There will always be time to practice and learn and make mistakes and learn more ater that; it's not like one simply has to spend a couple of hours with an engineer and they've then learned all they need to know. But it's a great learning opportunity, a great kick start to their knowledge (probably a better one than just books or BBSs - though those are useful as well), and a great way to see just what they are getting into for a lot cheaper than the time and gear of just jumping blindly into the unknown.

And notice I never said "let the engineer do everything for you". I said let the engineer pilot the gear for you as you tell him where you want the mix to go. That helps avoid getting a mix you don't want; so many new acts hate the mixes they get from "pros" because they just leave it all the decisions to them and don't communicate what they actually want. But even more germane to this thread, one can see and learn first-hand in an interactive Q&A manner that "I wanted this, and that is what he did to accomplish that exact thing". What a great learning opportunity that presents. Is that POV so wrong?

And regarding Armistice's comment (jokingly people - lighten up ;) ), even Jesus had 12 AEs on staff to help. :D

G.
 
I'm sure the OP is thrilled with the response he got here. I mean I'd be jumping out of my seat with excitement if the only answer I got was two dudes bickering like an old married couple.

Mojowon,

What I think Glen was trying to ask in his roundabout way was something like this:

"Do you really want to do this yourself?" Because in order to do the things you're asking you'll have to set aside a lot of time to learn how to do it (about as much time as it took to learn to play an instrument). And you're going to have to spend a pretty good amount of money in order to have the right equipment and/or software to make it sound nice. So if you DO want to make this into a hobby of sorts, then there's a few places to look at before you start. You might start at this link which is as simple of a reference as you'll find. But there's a LOT(!) of information there. It'll take you days to read it all.

If on the other hand you just want to get this stuff mixed and don't really want to worry about the nitnoid details that you'll have to deal with to do it yourself...then paying the money to have an established audio engineer to do it for you might be your most economic and time-saving option. And if you really want to learn from someone with experience then learning from an engineer along the way will help you out also.

Can you perhaps elaborate on what your intentions are with regard to the above??

actually three members did try to answer his question....Im sure he'll only be too happy to elaborate on his intentions


or he might be another n00b who doesn't bother posting back because of the condescending tone and general unhelpfulness of some of the more experienced posters here

who knows
 
Of course there are different types of "Praise" music, from choral gospel to Christian rock to Muslim hip hop, and yes, in some of them the kick may be more of a rock-type of force in the production. But it is FAR from guaranteed based just on the info the OP has provided so far.

Sometimes holding back on some of the specific advice is better than being in a rush to provide detailed advice based upon biased assumptions. Of course, having an engineer there in person to determine that is apparently a lousy idea....

G.


no one's telling him the specifics of mixing "his" song but mixing "a" song, and how we'd go about it...in as general a format as possible ftr

but of course your reading skills are up there with your n00b helping skills...almost non existent :rolleyes:

and yes hiring an engineer when you haven't even attempted to mix your first track is a lousy idea....but I'm glad you're branching out in these difficult economic times
 
no one's telling him the specifics of mixing "his" song but mixing "a" song, and how we'd go about it..
Uh huh.

Now sit down over here and let someone get you some hot, black coffee. It'll all be over soon.

G.
 
With a little water and lots of wine, methinks.
Oh yeah, and octraphonically (who needs stereo or 5.1 ! ). :cool:

"And so Jesus took the track and in the name of the Lord duplicateth the track, so that every man could now have the track. He said unto us "Blessed are thee whom listen to my riff, for they shall have their fill of my song" Unfortunately this resulted in nothing but a louder track, so sayeth us.."

(Fred: 6.53)
 
i was going to answer this post but Im going to wait to see how it pans out so i can be more specific in my cheek, could you elaborate your intention? :)
Better a poor but wise youth than an old but foolish king who no longer knows how to take warning.

As a dream comes when there are many cares, so the speech of a fool when there are many words.

All his days he eats in darkness, with great frustration, affliction and anger.

The more the words, the less the meaning, and how does that profit anyone?:spank:
 
Playing an instrument is rather easy. As J. S. Bach said once, "all you need to do is press the right keys at the right time" :)
 
no one's telling him the specifics of mixing "his" song but mixing "a" song, and how we'd go about it...in as general a format as possible ftr

I disagree with you on this. Read on:

Start with the kick drum and put it dead center.
You're assuming there is a kick in the recorded tracks. And why should he put it dead center? What happens if he doesn't? Does the song, if it has a kick need the kick to be in the middle?

If you have to, eq the kick to get a sound right for the song. I like a kick that sounds like "TUG!". It's got two components - the "T" which is the beater hitting the head and the "UG!" which is the whole drum sound.
Assuming there is a kick for argument's sake... Just because you like a particular sound for a kick, doesn't mean it's the sound that would fit the song, or is the sound that's needed, or even more basic... is the sound that has been captured during the tracking process.

Then add the bass, again dead center.
Is there a bass? Why dead center?

You can put the kick and bass to the slight left and right also if you like. I usually do them both dead center.
Oh, OK. So, they DON'T have to be dead center ;)


Put something like the high hat hard left and something equally light to the hard right. This is just how i do it.
Why? You do that on EVERY song? Again, what's the point? It doesn't even particulary mimic how a drumset is setup, so if you're going for a natural sound, that might even be distracting. Of course if you're going for electronica/weird stuff, all bets are off :)

Put the lead "thing" - lead vocal or guitar or sax, whatever it is, in the center.
Why? Shouldn't he use his ears and even more basic, have a picture in his head where each sound should be before putting things here and there? What if a lead vocal and a lead guitar are kinda playing off of each other? Would dead center still be the best place? How about panning them differently to accentuate the interplay between the two?

Then fill in the areas to the left and right of the center with other guitars and keyboards. If your keyboard is going stereo even better.
Why? Why is a stereo keyboard even better? Maybe it should be mono? Maybe it shouldn't be panned across the stereo field? If it's captured in stereo, should each side be panned hard L/R or should they be nudged more towards the middle, or maybe be lopsided and be tilted to one side?

Again, how do you know what you should do w/o even hearing the damn tracks in the first place?

Try to use as little eq as you can, and in general subtracting instead of boosting sounds better.
Why? Maybe boosting sounds better on a given EQ unit? Maybe you need to EQ the shit out of it?

Always aim to record as well as you can so that you don't need to eq too much. The best recordings I've done were when the sounds were so "right" that I didn't need any eq.

You don't need to record or mix as loud as you can. Most of my individual tracks run 1/2 to 3/4 of the way.

Find the best recorded example of your genre and put that up there with your tracks so that you can compare it to your song.

Get it as good as you can and then post an mp3 here and people will give you all kinds of advise - like food at a buffet, take what you need and leave the rest.

Finally some good advice there.
 
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