Guitar Panning for Final Mix

[Last Approach]

Hello,

OK, so I've been googling my ass off for about three days now trying to find some sort of answer to my questions regarding my mixes, but unfortunately there is nothing really conclusive so I figured I'd give this forum a try (which I should have joined a looong time ago).

Right, so our band has just recorded about 18 tracks ourselves as we don't have money to hire a studio yet. Needless to say, I want the tracks to sound as good as I can.

Anyway, there are two guitarists in our band - me and Bryn. So on each guitar we used two microphones, a condenser mic and a direct mic, to get that fuller sound.

As you guessed, here is the panning question - I'm really not sure what do with these tracks to get the best sound.

The Direct Mic produces the best "front" sound, and the condenser mic is being used to "fill" this sound in the background. At first, I used 40 for Direct and 65 for Condensor for me, and the opposite for Bryn (-40 and -65).

Anyway, I decided this felt a bit...empty...so I have recently changed it to 20 / 40 and -20 / -40.

My question is this really I guess; I see a LOT of advise from people suggesting hard panning is the best (I assume this is 100 / -100). Does anyone have any advise on this front in regards to how I could handle the panning for my situation?

Though I cannot remember what versions of the mixes are on there currently, if you want to listen to what I've done so far go to http://www.facebook.com/pages/Last-Approach/272004522258 - the new songs are Don't Carry, Hate The Dark and It's Too Late (but I KNOW the version of It's Too Late that is uploaded is very old with issues).

Thanks in advance for reading my essay on how to not know what you're doing with your mixes.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Many of the "big names" advocate only panning hard right, center, and hard left.
Do a Google search for LCR panning.

Here are some of my favorite discussions on the matter:
http://thewombforums.com/showthread.php?t=10454
http://thewombforums.com/showthread.php?t=13704

 

[miroslav]

First off...those numbers (20/40/65) are rather meaningless when talking panning. It's easier if you say it in clock terms...12:00...1:30...3:30.... as those numbers actually give a good visual.
The other numbers can be specific to a given DAW...

AFA your three songs...it all sounds rather centered, with just a bit of panning too the right of center of some guitar.

My advice is...don't pan by the numbers...pan with your ears, and then make note of where it ends up in clock terms rather than DAW numbers.

 

[Last Approach]

That's the issue I'm having I guess - I use Adobe Audition for my mixing, and it doesn't work with clock numbers but a percentage, which is what my numbers are.

And yes - the guitars are panned quite closely to the centre (20 percent either side) and then the other guitar panned a little further away again (40 percent). I find the songs sound very empty and quiet if the guitars are panned 100 percent either way...I've never really noticed professionally recorded songs done that way, but maybe they are.

As I have two guitar tracks per guitar, so four in total, where would I pan the extra tracks if my main sound is 100 percent left and right? Also, my drum left and right channels are 100 percet left and right so where would they go?

Thanks for all the help so far.

 

[leaningpine]

Lots of producers pan guitars hard left and right, What I would do is pan your guitar close mic to the left and room mic to the right, the other guitar close mic to the right and room to the left, it's a more realistic sound stage that way. The drums could be 100% or 75%+/- Bass should be centered, vocals should be centered. I listened to the tracks and I'm not hearing the guitars panned at all, it may be from the MP3 encoding, so I can't really hear the emptiness in the mix

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

There's nothing wrong with using percent numbers for panning; that's how may DAWs do it. It's also finer resolution than using clock numbers, as it's a bit difficult difficult to quantify the difference between 1:32 and 1:45 .

The difficulty, though can be in trying to figure out whether one means percent or degrees (a third valid descriptor many use). While close, they are not exact (90° = 100%, 45°=50%.) Use whatever works for you, but it's a good idea to ID which it is (o'clock, degrees, or percent) just to avoid confusion.

As to where to put your guitars, there is no definitive answer. So much depends upon the exact nature of the arrangement and the sound of the individual tracks, not to mention the tastes of the producer (you), that to say to do it specifically this way or that way is ludicrous.

Not to be intentionally controversial, but I am personally not a fan of defaulting to hard-panning of guitar parts, though it can sometimes be appropriate. But it's appropriateness should be based IMHO on the above-mentioned factors, and not just selected as a default position. And I am particularly not a fan of LCR panning, though it is a favorite amongst many mixing engineers because it requires less thought and mastering engineers because it arguably lends itself to easier deconstruction in mastering. IMHO, god gave us a 180° soundscape to work in in stereophonic sound, and to adhere to LCR panning is to waste the 177 of those degrees in-between.

But a few extra general concepts to add to those already mentioned to think over as you work out what you want:

You say you use the two mics per guitar to fill out the sound, one for "front", one for "background" stule sound. Is there a reason you feel you *need* to pan the two different mics per guitar separately? I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying you do have the option of stacking them *if you wish*,to give you a compete guitar sound in one location per guitar (e.g. +30/+30 and -30/-30 degrees, just as one example).

Another option is to pan the "front" and "back" mics separately, using the back as a kind of room fill, or bounced sound. Usually this fill would be of lesser volume and may possibly have a reverb or pre-delay added to it to add dimension. In such a case the two guitars would kind of cross in an X inyour pan space; for example, one guitar main may be panned X° left with it's fill sound panned Y° right, whereas guitar 2 main would be X° right with the fill panned Y° left.

Thirdly, where to stick the guitars usually is considered in conjunction with with other instruments that may or may not be in the mix, and everyone's part in the arrangement. There's nothing that says both guitars need to be panned separate L/R at all, especially if they are competing with a lot of other midrange instruments such as keyboards, horns, or assisting vocals. Often if you have different instruments playing different lines, but sharing much of the same dominant frequency ranges, you'll want to keep them separate. Similarly, if there's a call-and-response between the guitars and other instrument(s), often you'll want them panned at least some degree apart. In such cases, filling the pan space with guitar or panning them hard may not always be the best of choices.

All things to think about as you learn to form the mental image of what sounds "right" to you for each song you work on, which is what you'll need to do sooner or later in the mixing process of each song.

G.

 

[Last Approach]

I listened to the tracks and I'm not hearing the guitars panned at all, it may be from the MP3 encoding, so I can't really hear the emptiness in the mix

The ones that are uploaded to Facebook are the ones after I "corrected" the panning I believe - I used to have Dyn Mic at 40 / -40 % and Cond Mic at 70 / -70%, but I felt the sound was too empty so I changed it to 20 and 40. Perhaps though they're not panned enough at this stage, though I can certainly tell that they're panned when headphones are used or they're on my car stereo..

As to where to put your guitars, there is no definitive answer. So much depends upon the exact nature of the arrangement and the sound of the individual tracks, not to mention the tastes of the producer (you), that to say to do it specifically this way or that way is ludicrous.

To be honest I pretty much guessed that'd be the case - I used to do my own tracks back in the day and used to always go with 20 / -20%, but with my band songs now I'm just trying to make sure everything is right before we start sending them away to festivals etc.

Not to be intentionally controversial, but I am personally not a fan of defaulting to hard-panning of guitar parts, though it can sometimes be appropriate.

Thank god it's not just me. Though I'm certainly going to try it after reading all about it tonight, just to see what it sounds like.

You say you use the two mics per guitar to fill out the sound, one for "front", one for "background" stule sound. Is there a reason you feel you *need* to pan the two different mics per guitar separately?

It started just as an idea our bassist had - we figured that it'd either work (which it seems too) or it wouldn't, in which case I'd just delete whichever one I didn't want to keep.

However, other than "doubling" up the sound a little, it gives me the option to pan the two guitars differently (20% and 40% / -20% and -40%). Plus the sounds from the two different types of Microphone give a nice variation of guitar sounds in the mix. At least, that's the general idea...

To answer your question (which would help I'm sure )...I'm not really sure why I pan them differently. I just thought this would be the "best" way to go about it - perhaps spreading out the sound a little. What kind of effect would panning them together have really do you think?

Another option is to pan the "front" and "back" mics separately, using the back as a kind of room fill, or bounced sound.

That is exactly what I'm doing...well, that's my aim at least.

Other than the panning of my guitars (or generally the over-all balance), my other issues are coming from the vocals and how I handle the different "volume" increases when distorition kicks in. On the one hand, I have to raise the vocals about 1 or 2 db in order to counteract the louder guitars, but on the other hand I feel this doesn't sound quite right. Does anyone have any advise on this?

Also, where would an acoustic guitar sit in the mix if hard panning is used? Centre I would guess?

LCR panning.

Here are some of my favorite discussions on the matter:
http://thewombforums.com/showthread.php?t=10454
http://thewombforums.com/showthread.php?t=13704

Thanks for these links - they have been very clear and helpful. Though I do like the mixes I have to a point, I am going to give LCR a try tomorrow on at least one of the songs, then give the CD to my band mates for thoughts.



Thanks for all the help so far everyone...I've certainly picked the right forum to join

 

[miroslav]

The reason I like to use clock terms is mainly because EVERYONE knows them and can *visualize* them... which also translates easily to the positions they are hearing.
Percentages only mean something to a DAW user...for his DAW, as I'm not sure if 35% on my DAW is the exact same pan position as 35% on some other DAW...???...while a clock position is always the same and understood by all.

AFA degrees...yeah they are very accurate, but while most people can visualize where 45/90/180 is located...a lot of folks don't quite know where to place 25 degrees...or 75 degrees....etc.
But they know clock positions, even down to the minute, though I don't think it's all that critical to notate things down to the single percent/degree/minute.
Saying 1:30 or 2:00 is close enough for panning...maybe 1:45 sometimes!

On the guitar panning question...you’re talking about 20% 40% and then 100%, and how it's too empty when you go 100%. Well, there are positions in between 40% and 100%!
Just use your ears.
I alswo find that on a DAW, the 10%, 20%, 30% all still sound very close to center...and that also makes the percentages for panning not quite as easy to "visualize".

I like using the full width of the stereo image, as I find that often even that can be a bit "tight" for fitting everything in its own space/position.
Sometimes even "fanning out" your instruments close/next to each other will give a much fuller/wider sound then when stacking them on top of each other in the same spot.
I rarely have any two elements in the same spot.

For a typical mix going left to right I might do something like the following:

HL - doubled organ
8:00 - A. Guitar
9:00 - R. Guitar
10:00 - Piano
11:30 - Kick
12:00 - Lead Vocal/Lead guitar (but they rarely occur at the same time)
12:30 - Bass
1:00 - Snare
1:30 - Hat
2:00 - L. Organ
3:00 - R. Guitar
4:00 - A. Guitar
HR - doubled organ

This is a very rough estimate of the positions and the number/type of instruments used...but it gives you the idea what I mean about fanning out stuff.
Now you may think that will leave the center rather "thin"...but no, the doubled stuff will actually also fill out the center, while at the same time maintaining a certain amount of Left-Right spread.
You get a wide mix..but also a full mix without any empty spots in your L-R image, and nothing "fights" with anything else.

Of course...there are MANY production apporaches...so you have to find the one that works best for your songs, their arrangement and orchestration.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

my other issues are coming from the vocals and how I handle the different "volume" increases when distorition kicks in. On the one hand, I have to raise the vocals about 1 or 2 db in order to counteract the louder guitars, but on the other hand I feel this doesn't sound quite right. Does anyone have any advise on this?

Automate the gain on the guitar track(s) and drop the guitar by 1-2dB when the distortion kicks in so it stays as a more-or-less consistent level. Or drop the guitar by 1dB and raise the vocal by 1dB, so that individually they may not sound noticeably different, but they still play together better by 2dBs worth.

Also, where would an acoustic guitar sit in the mix if hard panning is used? Centre I would guess?

I'd personally give the same answer as the last post; it really does all depend upon the rest of the variables. How does the acoustic relate to the vocals? Are there any other instruments that have to be considered in that equation? What else is going on down the center? What role does the acoustic have in the arrangement? And so forth.

G.

 

[Last Approach]

Automate the gain on the guitar track(s) and drop the guitar by 1-2dB when the distortion kicks in so it stays as a more-or-less consistent level. Or drop the guitar by 1dB and raise the vocal by 1dB, so that individually they may not sound noticeably different, but they still play together better by 2dBs worth.

Should the volume not go higher and lower when distortion comes in and out? I thought that it should, but that is something else I've wondered...though if the volume is the same level all the way through...hmm, now you've opened up a whole new level of thought process for me (but not in a good way ).

I'd personally give the same answer as the last post; it really does all depend upon the rest of the variables. How does the acoustic relate to the vocals? Are there any other instruments that have to be considered in that equation? What else is going on down the center? What role does the acoustic have in the arrangement? And so forth.

G.

Actually this one I can answer dead easily - we only have acoustic in two songs on the album, and it's only purpose is to add a bit of "middle" to the song (like Hate The Dark that is on our FB page).

It's in the centre at the moment, anyhow, which shares the stage with the Vocals, Bass and Drum Overhead and Drum Bass. To the left and right of this are the two guitar tracks panned to different percentages, and hard left and right are the two Direct mics for the Drums L and R. Nothing else (though I may record some Piano at some stage...but lets not get into that right now).

 

[Chibi Nappa]

I am particularly not a fan of LCR panning, though it is a favorite amongst many mixing engineers because it requires less thought and mastering engineers because it arguably lends itself to easier deconstruction in mastering. IMHO, god gave us a 180° soundscape to work in in stereophonic sound, and to adhere to LCR panning is to waste the 177 of those degrees in-between.

The thought is that the only reliable pinpoint location for a panned mono sound is the phantom center image, the left speaker, and the right speaker. The "travel" of a sound between those points isn't nearly as smooth as one might think, and worse the in-between locations may vary on other listener's speakers. So any panned mono sound that is not L-C-R might just muddle up the image.

It is certainly not taking the easy way out. You have to plan very carefully when you are down to three mix locations. You can also bust out stereo micing techniques. Capture an acoustic guitar with a pair of stereo mics so it sits at 3:00, and it actually will appear there in the stereo field when the mics are panned hard L/R. Delay tricks like the Haas effect can also reliably place things at other places of the field, but that leaves you open to mono phase shenanigans. So you can put stuff in places other than LCR, but you have to plan for it.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Accidental duplicate post...mods please delete.

G.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

The thought is that the only reliable pinpoint location for a panned mono sound is the phantom center image, the left speaker, and the right speaker. The "travel" of a sound between those points isn't nearly as smooth as one might think, and worse the in-between locations may vary on other listener's speakers. So any panned mono sound that is not L-C-R might just muddle up the image

The one huge problem with that thinking is the multitude of very nice, un-muddled mixes out there over the years that do use the whole pan space.

And as far as in-between locations varying based upon the playback gear, the only real reasons that would happen would be either because of an imbalance between the left and right channel amplifiers, an imbalance in the efficiency of the left and right speakers, an imbalance in playback acoustics, an imbalance in the listener's ears, or a mis-aligned balance setting on the playback preamplifier. None of those situations would cause any more problems in a full stereophonic image than they would in a LCR stereophonic image, and most would cause just as many problems with the C part of an LCR stereophonic image as they would with a full stereophonic one. Remember, an LCR image is just a stereo image of a three-point sound source.

This is an OLD, OLD debate, and the only common denominators that I have ever been able to isolate that make any real sense to me are that LCR is preferred by many because it's easier to detect phase issues and because it's easier to break down the stereo mix via M/S decoding when working on the master. The difference in opinion between the two sides of the debate are in just how important those factors really are. Most of the rest is a lot of smoke, IMHO.

Just an opinion, sure. But one arrived at after considerable consideration. But also one in which many will disagree, I admit.

G.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Percentages only mean something to a DAW user...for his DAW, as I'm not sure if 35% on my DAW is the exact same pan position as 35% on some other DAW...???...while a clock position is always the same and understood by all.

I completely disagree. Since you know exactly where all three orientation points are (hard left is 100% L, hard right is 100% R, and center is 0%), using a percentage system is just as clear as using a clock system. 35% L is simply the point that's 35% of the way from center to hard left, 72% R is meanwhile 72% of the distance from center to hard right. If you personally prefer to use clock positions, then go ahead, but it's not like you're gaining clarity or accuracy...

 

[miroslav]

I completely disagree. Since you know exactly where all three orientation points are (hard left is 100% L, hard right is 100% R, and center is 0%), using a percentage system is just as clear as using a clock system. 35% L is simply the point that's 35% of the way from center to hard left, 72% R is meanwhile 72% of the distance from center to hard right. If you personally prefer to use clock positions, then go ahead, but it's not like you're gaining clarity or accuracy...

While I agree that 35% is always 35%...it's NOT always going to fall in the same position *visually*since
not all pan knobs rotate to exactly the same visual point across their 100% range.
So telling someone to place the knob at 72% of fader travel...isn't very clear to everyone, since most real consoles, unlike DAWs just use hash marks or vague numbers....they don't have percentage markings.
A clock face is always the same...for everyone, everywhere.
3:00 is an exact visual position on EVERY pan knob.
But more importantly, using a clock position is also a perfect point locater for the stereo image between our ears.
IOW…we know when we are hearing a 3:00 pan position...but a 35% or 72% pan position...???...where exactly should we be hearing that???
Panning is about position and not really about a percentage of something else...which is why the clock face works so well.

Anyway...maybe that's just the new "DAW lingo"...but when asked, "Where did you pan the Rhythm Guitar?"...I've never heard anyone say they panned it to the 60% position...at least not until this thread.
Most people use the clock face a the clearest reference point that everyone can understand.
It's no different with any knob on any piece of gear.
"I set the Threshold at -30%." is harder to visualize than when saying "I set the Threshold at 10:00."...IMHO.

Not to mention…my DAW doesn’t even have percentages…just single digit numbers, so again, I find clock values to be the most understandable when discussing pan positions in the stereo image.

But to each his own....

 

[NYMorningstar]

If you personally prefer to use clock positions, then go ahead, but it's not like you're gaining clarity or accuracy...

I panned my guitar to 3:30 and showed up two hours late for the gig



Why did the engineer hard pan the guitars??













He wanted to see time fly

 

[DrewPeterson7]

While I agree that 35% is always 35%...it's NOT always going to fall in the same position *visually*since
not all pan knobs rotate to exactly the same visual point across their 100% range.
So telling someone to place the knob at 72% of fader travel...isn't very clear to everyone, since most real consoles, unlike DAWs just use hash marks or vague numbers....they don't have percentage markings.
A clock face is always the same...for everyone, everywhere.
3:00 is an exact visual position on EVERY pan knob.
But more importantly, using a clock position is also a perfect point locater for the stereo image between our ears.
IOW…we know when we are hearing a 3:00 pan position...but a 35% or 72% pan position...???...where exactly should we be hearing that???
Panning is about position and not really about a percentage of something else...which is why the clock face works so well.

Anyway...maybe that's just the new "DAW lingo"...but when asked, "Where did you pan the Rhythm Guitar?"...I've never heard anyone say they panned it to the 60% position...at least not until this thread.
Most people use the clock face a the clearest reference point that everyone can understand.
It's no different with any knob on any piece of gear.
"I set the Threshold at -30%." is harder to visualize than when saying "I set the Threshold at 10:00."...IMHO.

Not to mention…my DAW doesn’t even have percentages…just single digit numbers, so again, I find clock values to be the most understandable when discussing pan positions in the stereo image.

But to each his own....

Actually, I agree more with your first point, that percentages don't carry over as easily for knobs which may go farther than 90 degrees in either direction and thus gauging percentages is a little tricky, than your second...

...but, doesn't that give you the same problem with clock positions? I.e - "pan the guitars to 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock" will give you two totally differnt mixes if one set of knobs ranges from +/- 90 degrees, while another goes +/- 120 degrees, and 10/2 will give you a closer stereo image on a 120 degree knob than a 90?

...which comes back to what I'm saying - really, none of this matters because it doesn't matter what the knob says, it matters where you're hearing the sound. And, I think it's just as easy to gauge that a sound is now about "30% left of center" than it is to say it's at about 1 o'clock.

Really, neither is better than the other. Use whatever you're most comfortable with, as long as when you're talking about 60% or 1:45 o'clock you're taking about where the sound is coming from and not the knob setting. I just don't understand how one could be "better" than the other, since they both convey the same information: one the number of units away from the center point of a circle with that circle divided into 12 units, the other the number of units away from the center point of a circle with that circle divided into 100 units. They're both measures of position.

 

[miroslav]

...but, doesn't that give you the same problem with clock positions? I.e - "pan the guitars to 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock" will give you two totally differnt mixes if one set of knobs ranges from +/- 90 degrees, while another goes +/- 120 degrees, and 10/2 will give you a closer stereo image on a 120 degree knob than a 90?

....

...because it doesn't matter what the knob says, it matters where you're hearing the sound.

I agree with your point….and it is also my point.
We are talking about two different perspectives and we should note which one when mentioning pan positions...
1.)where OUR pan knob falls…and 2.)where we actually hear it in the stereo image.
If I tell someone that I like to pan the guitars to 2:00 in the stereo field...it will always be the same spot.
But as we both have noted…not all knobs have the same amount of travel…like the pan knobs on my console will pan hard L/R all the way down to 7:00/5:00!
Sometimes it’s confusing….I may be looking at my knobs and thinking about THEIR position instead of the actual pan position in the stereo filed!
But that mainly comes from the fact that I also use the clock reference when I’m talking about volume knobs and EQ knobs…where it’s OK for them to go beyond the horizontal.
You know…all those guitar amps that have NO markings…so the clock reference is the only thing you can go by.


As Glen pointed out, degrees are also quite valid, AFA where we hear it in the stereo image...but I think a lot of folks would not really know how to reference 25° or 75° to what they are hearing as easily as they would know clock positions.

I mean…we’re all splitting hairs, and of course, we each have a different working “surface” and SOP to consider, which changes the whole perspective of what works best for us.
Before digital…I don’t think percentage was ever in use for knob settings of any kind…

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

1.)where OUR pan knob falls…and 2.)where we actually hear it in the stereo image.
If I tell someone that I like to pan the guitars to 2:00 in the stereo field...it will always be the same spot.
But as we both have noted…not all knobs have the same amount of travel…like the pan knobs on my console will pan hard L/R all the way down to 7:00/5:00!

You're right, this side topic is REALLY splitting hairs, but you do bring up something that I hadn't considered, but is important if other people like yourself have cosidered it:

Personally I *never* reference pan knob position when I talk about pan amount; it is *always* (for me) a reference to pan location in the stereo field, which is really all that counts. There are several reason to make this important distinction, all of wich have to do with the fact that there is no standard for "physical " pan control, whether we're talking analog or digital:

First, the number of degrees or "hours" (or whatever measurement scale you wish to use) in a physical pan knob is not standard, nor is the pan knob's relation to the stereo space (you can easily rotate this pan knob 120° in order to execute an image pan of 90°, buy that one goes 90° or 150° for the same amount of pan.) Then there's those pan controls that are not knobs or knob representations at all, but are either center-detented sliders or simple numeric controls - or maybe just automation rubber bands.

So IMHO pan "value" refers to either the percentage of total pan capability, or to a degree value where hard pan is calibrated as 180° left or right, but has absolutely nothing to do with the appearance of the control representation of pan. Frankly I never even thought of it as any other way. But apparently others might, I guess; which - just like when talking about decibels - makes it important to specify the unit of measurement one is using.

G.

 

[RAMI]

I like to pan my guitar to 4:53. O'clock.