Jazz Soloing

  • Thread starter Thread starter CalebMcC
  • Start date Start date
C

CalebMcC

New member
I am a young guitar playing who has only been at it for about 4 years. for a while i was learning acoustic balads, rock and shred. i naively felt like i had learned most of what i could, until i began to explore jazz.
having learned msot of the necessary chords and progressions as well as a little theory, i am now moving on to lead guitar in jazz, which im finding rather difficult. ive found that a lydian sounds great over most maj7, maj9, and maj13 chords and the progressions that go around them.
i know there are numerous more experienced musicians on this site that can help to infom me of other scales and modes and uses for jazz progressions. anything you guys find useful id love to hear.
 
If you find that scales are too formulaic (I do), don't use them. Just play whatever note looks good at the moment. When I play a jazz solo, it could be completely tonal or atonal, I don't even pay any attention.

Was it Miles who said, if you play a wrong note, play it again? There are no wrong notes. At least according to Ornette Coleman!
 
i would agree with that, however, i often like to use them as guidelines and then from there do more chromatic notes and diminished walk ups/walk downs in between. however, i usually like to do a smoother jazz that doesnt have as much of this, and sticks closer to the scales.
 
CalebMcC said:
i would agree with that, however, i often like to use them as guidelines and then from there do more chromatic notes and diminished walk ups/walk downs in between. however, i usually like to do a smoother jazz that doesnt have as much of this, and sticks closer to the scales.
Click to expand...

There's a big difference between chromatic and atonal. A chromatic run has a very definite flavor, as does a diminished scale. Free jazz doesn't have to be tonal or atonal. It could be either; it could be polytonal. It's more about seeking pure melody, which could be very tonal so long as it's true expression and not just a bag of prepared licks.

I listen to a lot of smooth jazz, and too much of it is just not engaging. That's mostly because they either don't hire drummers or have they play like they might as well be a drum machine. Some of those players do seem a little afraid of dissonance. Heck, most of them seem afraid of syncopation . . .
 
i would agree that many of them do a rather bland style of smooth jazz, however, if youre suggestion to do as i feel or follow the melody, ill be able to figure that out on my own, and may begin to explore that path a little more. however, i am also looking to learn the scales, as theyll be helpful regardless of what i end up doing. from what i do know about jazz (which isnt much) alot of the chords have a very specific flavor to them, and i feel that in many cases, you need a distinctly flavored scale to go behind such chords, which is essentially the reason i wish to know them, even if i end up finding that its better to go free jazz.
 
I just look at that from the other way around. Most jazz, especially smooth jazz, has a pretty significant amount of composed melody (and harmony, rhythm, etc.) So I think you write the melody and then figure out which crazy chords go with it, then you expand on the melody in your solo.

But if you are dropped in to someone else's gig, it's tempting to think hey I'm the guitar player, so I need to play this chord progression and now it's my turn to solo so what goes with those chords? I don't know if horn players think quite that way. I really don't know, because I'm not a horn player. But most solos I hear are expositions on the melody.

That's not to say you shouldn't pay attention to what key you're in, because that is probably good to know for smooth jazz. I always think back to an interview I read . . . hmmm . . . a whole lot of years ago, it was Rory Stuart, and they asked him a fairly inane question of what he would play over rhythm changes. He gave a different example, saying if the chord were C he might play an F#, because maybe he wanted to push the issue, but maybe that might be because he knew the next chord was B.

So he was definitely capable of taking a theoretical approach; you have to really internalize that to be able to think that quick. Instead, you can prepare a solo, or you can stick to a safe scale, or you can just wing it. I prepare a bit, use some theory, and wing it a lot :D You can probably guess I'm not a fan of the safe scale approach, because I think the soloist should drive the changes and not be driven by them.
 
the best musicians i've met never messed with scales. they all play by ear, i bet you're probably good enough to do that. playing scales and other peoples songs is all well and good when you're first starting out, but after a while if you get too caught up in that you become a human juke box with no creativity. Sometimes i won't even listen to music for a while and just mess around on the guitar and make it up as i go. imo that's the best way to go.

unless you're trying to make it as one of those hired guns, then maybe scales and reading music could be beneficial.
 
Well if you're gonna gig as a jazz player you probably need to be able to read a chart. Although all the jazz guys I know seem to have everything memorized. I can't remember anything, which explains why I stick to open mic night :o
 
A few suggestions.

First - go out and get yourself a copy of Mick Goodrick's The Advancing Guitarist. It's the best book on the subject I've ever seen.

Second - you don't know even half the chord progressions and theory you need to know. Which is a good thing. Keep learning harmony, but remember that when you're on the gig you need to leave the theory at home. While you're at it, learn arpeggios, and learn them well. They are your friends!

Third - (this is the most important point I've got) if you want to learn how to solo, listen to great soloists, and steal from them! The single most useful thing you will ever do to learn how to solo (or play in any way, really) is to transcribe other people's stuff. Now, please note that I did NOT say to find someone else's transcription; I said transcribe it yourself! Find something you like, sit down, and figure out every damn note they played. And write it out - that is an essential part of transcription, because then you can look at the chords they are playing a line over, and figure out how they go together. Which brings me to...

Four - don't just transcribe the solo - transcribe the rhythm section too. It doesn't matter if you know every lick Pat Martino ever played if you don't know where he played it - so dig into those chord progressions.

Five - (and this is another big one) do NOT just listen to guitar players. The fact is, most jazz guitar players are playing shit that is 20 years behind what the horn guys are doing (please note that I said MOST). Guitar players have too many other things to worry about. We have to know chords, and how to comp, and we can actually get the occasional gig in a pop band that actually pays money. Occasionally, we even get to spend time with this thing called a woman! All most horn players have to do is sit around their crappy little apartments and practice improvisation (:D). Needless to say, they tend to be pretty good at it. So learn from their anti-social habits, and transcribe horn solos. Piano players tend to have a hard time getting woman too, so transcribe their solos too (;)). From a more serious point of view, horn players and piano players have a very different perspective on soloing due to the nature of their instruments. You will never be able to duplicate their lines exactly, but that's not the point. You can get ideas from them, and then it is up to you to figure out where to go from there.

Sixth - work on your articulation. A lot of jazz guitar players, particularly young ones, tend to spend a lot of time picking every note. Listen to those horn players I mentioned, and you will find they are not doing anything of the sort. Slides, hammer-ons, pull-offs, bends - all that shit is your friend, and a big part of what makes a solo expressive. My favorite Jazz guitarist is probably Pat Metheny, and his articulation is just slippery. He may or may not be as fast as Mike Stern or Pat Martino, but his playing is a whole hell of a lot more interesting to listen to than Stern's constant be-bop scales or Martino's machine gun sixteenth notes. And it's all because of that slipperiness.

Finally - learning to solo in Jazz is a lifetime endeavor. So is comping. Hell, so is just listening to the shit. But you will NEVER learn anything until you get out and start playing it with other people, preferably in front of an audience (OK, OK, it's jazz - on a stage, there probably won't be an audience!).


And though I couched some of this in (bad) humor, it's still all true. Or at least, I think so. So does every great jazz guitar player I know, and I know more than a few.

Oh yeah, also, jazz has enough tenor sax players - try to keep your ego in check. There is nothing worse than an arrogant jazz musician who looks down on what everyone else is doing simply because it isn't Jazz.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Oh, I should add never play octaves. It's been way overdone. As soon as you hear a jazz guitarist go for octaves, you know he's officially out of ideas. Or if you must use octaves, break it up with other intervals. Do a measure or two at the octave, then swap out for a major seventh, then maybe a minor ninth. Mess with people's heads a bit by doing the unexpected.
 
CalebMcC said:
I am a young guitar playing who has only been at it for about 4 years. for a while i was learning acoustic balads, rock and shred. i naively felt like i had learned most of what i could...
Click to expand...

You feel like you have learned all there is to know about ballads, rock, and shred in four years???? You are young, aren't you?:rolleyes:
 
Don't be afraid to make a mistake.

If you make a mistake, it's a mistake.

If you make it twice, it's JAZZ!
 
mshilarious said:
Oh, I should add never play octaves. It's been way overdone. As soon as you hear a jazz guitarist go for octaves, you know he's officially out of ideas. Or if you must use octaves, break it up with other intervals. Do a measure or two at the octave, then swap out for a major seventh, then maybe a minor ninth. Mess with people's heads a bit by doing the unexpected.
Click to expand...


Or do what all the bass players do and play tenths!


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
to reply to ggun, i was very young when i thought that and have since learned quite a bit better and know that i could spend my life studying music and never comprehend even most of it.

to Light, i would first of all like to say my father is a piano player, and he was able to find a woman to get married to. i will try to get as many theory books as i can. i often try to think like a sax player, but its something that has a long way to go. Also, i am going to start to transcribe other players. up until this point i didnt know alot that would be beneficial to learn from, but i will use the ones you put and listen to them till im hearing it in my sleep-which is essentially how i learned to play the other styles that i know.

at any rate, im noticing alot of what is being said is to leave much of the theory behind. to reply to greyharmonix i would largely agree that it is uncreative to learn only scales and modes and think it is a great idea to stop listening to music so that you can have an original, uninfluenced thought. also i get that its jazz and its very free and open and that 2 mistakes does in fact make jazz :D, yet at this point i still am looking alot at theory so i can learn it and then branch off from there. learn the "rules" and use them as much as i can and then it will be easier to know what im trying to reach and understand that i can or cant get it through scales and theory and it will help me better know how else to achieve it. or at least i think thats a logical method. perhaps someone who knows this style better could tell me if im going about this in a logical manner.
 
Some of these thoughts are rather advanced along the progression of jazz theory, even though there is no deep theory on this thread. Jazz progressed from relatively simple structures to the exceeding complexity of bebop to the deconstruction of Davis' modal theories, Coleman's free jazz, and the "postmodern" jazz era very quickly, in less than fifty years. It took classical 200 years to make that transition!

So the postmodern player (that's you) is stuck facing all of this at once, against a background of popular jazz that essentially has returned to pre-bop sensibilities. At the same time, you have to both learn theory and ignore it.
 
CalebMcC said:
to Light, i would first of all like to say my father is a piano player, and he was able to find a woman to get married to.
Click to expand...

SHOCKING!!! :)



CalebMcC said:
at any rate, im noticing alot of what is being said is to leave much of the theory behind.
Click to expand...

Learn the theory first, THEN leave it behind. It's important to know the stuff first, as the real purpose of theory is to teach you how to play the things which you are hearing in your hand.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
CalebMcC said:
Also, i am going to start to transcribe other players. up until this point i didnt know alot that would be beneficial to learn from, but i will use the ones you put and listen to them till im hearing it in my sleep-which is essentially how i learned to play the other styles that i know.
Click to expand...


Don't just listen, figure it out. You don't necessarily have to learn how to actually play it perfectly, but most important is to learn how the lines relate to the the changes. It's all too easy to learn to play the lines, but forget to learn the chords, at which point you've really just wasted your time.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Simple-est answer: If it sounds good, record it.

Everything else is just talk.
 
Go here.....
http://www.berklee.edu/http://www.berklee.edu/

and maybe go here.....
http://www.music.unt.edu/


just because it is next door to this.....
https://www.twu.edu/ (30,000 single ladies who love the music scene across town!)


and just down the road from this......
http://www.austinlivemusic.com/


and while you're at it, casually study Steely Dan and Dave Grusin and the music of anyone on this list.......
http://www.berklee.edu/alumni/prominent_alumni.php


but never forget where it came from. Listen to Charlie Parker and his contemporaries. Heck, I would even look up Skunk Baxter and Lee Ritenour vids on youtube........:D Even Chuck D'Aloia has a great lessons dvd that got me started making the jump from blues to jazz. The theory is necessary, you have to know the rules to break them, but then learn to fly solo.....

then when you're ready, move to Nashville and get ready to learn all over again.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top