On "Expert" Advise

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stevieb

Just another guy, really.
(First, know that I am not ragging on anyone here. If someone is tempted to take this personally, I would suggest they look inward, and ask themselves, "DOES this apply to me?" If the answer is "yes," or "it could," that person really needs to do some soul searching...)

A recent post about a part of guitar maintenance got me thinking- first about that specific issue, then about guitar maintenance in general, then about maintenance of machines in general (and really, a guitar is a sound-making machine.)

Too often, non-experts accepts expert advise with little or no critical evaluation. Too often, I see where advise from an "expert" is, as best one can tell, based on what someone told the "expert," which was accepted at face value, with little or no critical evaluation or testing- the procedure or material seems to work well enough the first time it is used, and thus is accepted as the best practice from then, on- sometimes for that person's entire career, thus screening out ALL other materials or procedures from consideration. Testing and evaluating new things can take time and resources, true, but the alternative could be horrible. To illustrate this with an extreme example, suppose someone suggested that the best thing to clean a fretboard with, was actually gasoline, re-packaged as Clean-Rite Fretboard cleaner. The Clean-Rite rep. makes a sweet-sounding pitch to our erstwhile "expert," even demo'ing it on a neck the rep has, and our boy listens intently and is totally awed. He stocks the stuff in his guitar and amp repair shop, sells several bottles (at a personal profit of $5.00 per bottle!) Guitar repair business has been slow, but two weeks later a guitar finally comes in that needs fretboard cleaning... Sorry, folks, I can't go on. The possible results are truly too horrible to imagine.

Shortly after graduating from college, I landed a job as a service advisor at a Porche/Audi dealership. The place had one Porche tech, "Harold," and he enjoyed something of a demi-god reputation among the Porche customers we had. Personally, I accepted his expertise at face value, and marveled at the cache he had among our customers- I was NOT a detractor. One day, I listened to him advise a customer on the finer points of using Rain-X (which causes rainwater to roll off the windshield- very cool stuff.) He advised cleaning the windshield with a Coca-Cola, saying the carbonated water was what did the cleaning. After the customer left, I asked the tech if perhaps club soda might work better than Coke, as it had no sugar and no artificial color in it. Thus, it had a greater quantity of cleaning agent (carbo water) and would not leave brown spots on a light-colored surface. You would have thought I suggested he get a DNA test to see if he was raised by his real mother- he puffed himself up as much as he good and basically told me I had no place questioning his advise.

I was quite perplexed by his reaction, until I realized he has his ego so wrapped around the way he did his job that he could not consider a suggestion by anyone who's name was not something like "Hans." Experts can get that way: they narrow down the source of truth to those who they respect, and thus put on draft-horse blinders that prevent them from even seeing, never mind considering, other sources of truth.


Technology is an on-going process. Newer methods or materials are being developed almost daily. Some turn out to be disasters, and some prove that the formerly-accepted best practice was actually a disaster, it's self. Remember in the mid 70's, when "long-chain polymer spray protectants" first hit the shelves? People loved putting on their dashboards- made them clean and shiny, and preserved them at the same time. Or did it? Some people began to believe it actually ACCELERATED dashboard deterioration. What's the truth? Who knows? A TRUE expert would know how to evaluate both the new and the old, to determine what would be the better. A hack would just shrug and say to himself, "This can make me money," or "Hey! People will worship me!" and adopt it, whole hog.

Ask yourself, which are you closer to? The true expert? Or the hack?
 
I'm with you...

I've had a basement studio for about 25 years now and I am, by no means at all, an expert. In fact, I probably do lots of stuff the wrong way. I do value everyone's opinions on this website though because, in many instances, there isn't necessarily a wrong way...just a different way and the opinions here have opened my eyes to different ways of doing things. This website DOES have it's share of wiseguys though (and that can piss me off sometimes), but overall, it has been VERY helpful to me.
Sooo, long story short...I'm probably more of a hack than a true expert, but my heart is in the right place..the bottom line for any newbie on this sight...take everything with a grain of salt and get what you can out of it. DON'T take it all as Bible truth.
 
I'm just an English language hack, but I suggest you learn to spell "advice." Although vice and vise are pronounced the same, advise and advice are not. :)
 
The one thing you over look in your analysis is that a "guitar" is essentially a very simple "machine". It is assembled with four essentially simple components whose properties are widely understood. There is very little new technology involved despite what some would have you believe in their promotional literature.

The complicated bits about how that machine works are understood by many and to be successful in the trade for any length of time you have to have a grasp on them. What you have to be aware of and what you are describing exist in every trade and are normally referred to as cowboys. They will always exist in every trade there is no way round it other than for you to investigate the persons references and credentials. The internet is the perfect breeding ground for myth and for cowboys to propagate if this has just become apparent to anyone all I can say is "oh my!".

Experts don't gain respect by being approachable or by being mr nice guy or by telling anyone what they want to hear. They gain a reputation based on the quality of the information they deliver. The same applies in reverse. If you hear any BS being handed out say so. Equally if you appreciate the information you receive say so.
 
I read this somewhere (could have been here).....


"An expert is one who learns more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing" Could this be the "cowboy" state on mind?
 
Also an "expert" is often someone that is capable of saying "I don't know" when asked a question out of his range of expertise.
 
The new technology I referred to was primairly that which is used in maintenance of a guitar, although there is newer technology that is used in design and construction of guitars, too- search either google or this forum for "fullerplast," as an example.
 
The new technology I referred to was primairly that which is used in maintenance of a guitar, although there is newer technology that is used in design and construction of guitars, too- search either google or this forum for "fullerplast," as an example.

Believe me that is neither new nor complicated. I am fully aware of what it is or isn't supposed to be or do. There is a lot of mis-information on that subject alone, and if you search here you'll find comments on the subject from me. It is a grain filler nothing more nothing less.

There are many products sold for maintenance of your guitar many if not all are just repackaging of cheaper existing products that have been used for decades and in some cases centuries. Some claim additions or refinements that are meant to enhance or improve the basic product. Most of it is bunkum. It's much the same the cosmetics industry in that regard. At the end of the day shampoo is shampoo and no amount of improved formula's is going to stop your hair turning grey and failing out when it wants to.
 
I read this somewhere (could have been here).....
"An expert is one who learns more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing" Could this be the "cowboy" state on mind?

This is just the nature of having finite brain space. Most of us only have enough time to explore a few subjects with any depth. I believe a cowboy would be one who knows a little about a little and thinks he knows everything about everything.

Also an "expert" is often someone that is capable of saying "I don't know" when asked a question out of his range of expertise.

+1,000,000 on this.
 
I'm just an English language hack, but I suggest you learn to spell "advice." Although vice and vise are pronounced the same, advise and advice are not. :)

Yeah. You're basically in broken English asking for us to advise you on experts, and not commenting on the advice from experts. ;)
 
right on, the point is to know something about the subject and receive advice/information critically (not necessarily "criticisingly"). I've felt for a while that I'm being overcharged/cheated by auto mechanics, so I read up on different modules and common issues with cars (and in the process realized that if your manual says "change oil every 7K miles" you don't need to do it every 3k miles just because the "expert" in overalls tells you so, especially if you get synthetic oil, which to me is a matter of convenience, not only expense - i drive more, so changing oil every 3k miles is ridiculous and impractical). i am by no means an expert and I still can't fix cars (and don't want to), but at least i'm able to make informed decisions when receiving an estimate.

I approach guitars the same way - I've learned to to DIY setups and maintenance, I have my own preferences, but I still prefer an expert to do certain things, like nut/fret work.

I recently picked up a saxophone and am trying to learn and while I'd like to learn DIY maintenance of that, at this point it seems too complex without the tools and experience. So I'll have to refer to experts (hopefully not soon).

And finally: somebody can be a true expert and still be a jerk (or even an idiot). For instance that porche tech - he may have been an expert as far as fixing the cars, but he was an idiot with the cola advice (even if it's not harmful). people are often highly skilled in one area, while completely ignorant in another (remember Sherlock Holmes, who thought that sun revolves around the earth?)
 
Geech, guys, it was just a TYPO. At the worst, I got a little ahead of myself. Except for you two yahoos, this is a pretty good discussion.

Can we focus on the TOPIC, now??
 
Geech, guys, it was just a TYPO. At the worst, I got a little ahead of myself. Except for you two yahoos, this is a pretty good discussion.

Can we focus on the TOPIC, now??

Apart from some one picking at your typo (;)) I think it's been pretty well focused so far. What bit's are you not happy with?
 
What is the ultimate outcome of this?

Establishing that even experts don't know everything?
 
You don't take any advice well so I don't see the point of the thread.
 
Also an "expert" is often someone that is capable of saying "I don't know" when asked a question out of his range of expertise.

In my field of expertise, "I don't know" usually means "fuck off I'm busy". :D
 
Geech, guys, it was just a TYPO. At the worst, I got a little ahead of myself. Except for you two yahoos, this is a pretty good discussion.

Can we focus on the TOPIC, now??

Sorry man - I work in a very different field today, but my background's in literature, so I'm a little more finely attuned than most to word usage, and the occasionally humorous ways in which words are sometimes misused. ;)

But, what's there to discuss? That sometimes experts make mistakes, or that sometimes they're not even experts but rather are merely passing on received wisdom with an eye on looking knowledgeable? Well, yeah - welcome to the internet.

At the same time, I think everyone who's been around long enough can also tell you that they learned the hard way that sometimes when an expert says something and you disagree with them, you're wrong. I.e. - experts are usually known as experts for a reason.

Since this is all pretty much common knowledge and there's a million cliches that could be applied here, I figured a more constructive use of this thread was to make bad grammar jokes. Hope you don't mind. :D
 
As Drew said, welcome to the internet, where anyone can post advise (um, I mean advice) on any subject they want whether they know anything about it or not. One of my favorites is the posts where folks play the "physics" card as if they know what they are talking about when the only formal study of the subject they have done was in high school, if then.
 
One of my favorites is the posts where folks play the "physics" card as if they know what they are talking about when the only formal study of the subject they have done was in high school, if then.

I've totally done that!
rofl.gif


In my defense, 1.) I was actually quite good at it and 2.) my teacher, knowing #1 and knowing I was a guitarist, had me give a demonstration to the class about vibrational physics based upon the guitar. It still doesn't change the fact that eventually I realized I was wrong. :D
 
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