Bass Recording Preference: DI or Mic/Amp?

[Bob's Mods]

I was wondering what the consensis is. What does the greater home wrecking community prefer: Bass guitar recorded direct or miced? I record mine direct and it sounds great where the track is solo'd. Once the bass track is mixed with other tracks it tends to loose its character and does not stand out. It does sound good and is there but it seems to loose its special flavor. It is a great sounding bass in its own right so its not the instrument. I've always been recording bass direct and have never experimented with an amp cause I don't have one. Would micing a bass guitar through an amp standout better in the mix than recording direct alone? Its much easier to record direct which is why I like it.
I do know that recording regular guitar direct does not measure up. A mic'd guitar always sounds better to me. Is the effect the same for the bass guitar as well when recorded direct? Is it the nature of all direct recorded tracks to just seem to be missing some pizzas and zing?

Thanks to all cyber space home wreckers for your pearls of wisdom.

Bob

 

[rayc]

This is a much chewed over topic - for a variety of responses & a consensus you should do a search of the forums.
My personal op. - a combo of mic'd & DI.
If you DI you can run a split line to your amp & mic an amped version of the same performance then you'll have 2 tracks that you can blend in the mix to achieve what you want.
As to DI - of late I've used a Behri Bass DI - it's tweakable so there's some variation available. You could use a good Preamp as a DI to add colour or character or just ensure you get enough signal.
Getting the bass to sit in the mix is an entirely different issue & you'll have to trade off EQ tweaks to get it to happen. This might mean picking the range of frequqncies you feel are missing once mixed and subtly cutting some of that range from the instruments the bass overlaps.
My ususl 1st step, because I like some specific definition, is to give my bass tracks a few dBs of boost at 3kHz & then, if it still can't get its head up, I'll carve away some of the from the overlaps.

 

[WhiteStrat]

I'm with rayc on this one. I don't understand all the nuances of why, but the same thing was to happening to me as to you, Bob's Mods. The DI sounded great solo, but got lost in the mix. Then I had a project with a band that really want their amp sound for the bass. I humored them and threw a mic in front of the amp. But I split it and DI'd it as well, figuring I'd use the DI.

Fact is, I used 'em both--just about 50/50 mixed together. Tried it numerous times since then (with different amps) and a combination of the two is always what ends up working best.

The mic'd amp has more energy and some natural compression, while the DI's got more smooth bottom end. You can see why the two would work well together...

 

[avieth]

I use a tube preamp as a direct box. Makes the flatwound strings sound real smooth. Once it's recorded on to tape it only sounds even better.

 

[gecko zzed]

I use a DI for bass, or I plug it straight into the desk. I don't seem to have suffered the same "loss of character" as described elsewhere, and I haven't been induced (through lack of good bass sound) to look for alternatives.

However, the exception is with upright basses, which I record using a mike, having discovered that most have pickups that don't sound very nice.

 

[Bob's Mods]

I just don't know why its so tough to get the bass to stick out with some character. Is it a digital thing? I've got a great LynxOne audio card. My pre is super clean with a transformer input. I use a Paranormal bass DI. Its a super chain from instrument to recorded track. I do use EQ to help it fit right but that only goes so far. Maybe it is a combo of DI and amp that will take it to next level? Is this a digital mix thing..or... Do guys that mix on an analog console have the same issue? I'm hearing some great bass guitar that jumps right out at you on commercial music that I love. Whats the magic bullet?

Bob the Mod guy.

 

[Rokket]

I just don't know why its so tough to get the bass to stick out with some character. Is it a digital thing? I've got a great LynxOne audio card. My pre is super clean with a transformer input. I use a Paranormal bass DI. Its a super chain from instrument to recorded track. I do use EQ to help it fit right but that only goes so far. Maybe it is a combo of DI and amp that will take it to next level? Is this a digital mix thing..or... Do guys that mix on an analog console have the same issue? I'm hearing some great bass guitar that jumps right out at you on commercial music that I love. Whats the magic bullet?

Bob the Mod guy.

Compress the bass and use a low pass filter set at about 150hz and see what happens in the mix.

 

[mixsit]

I just don't know why its so tough to get the bass to stick out with some character. Is it a digital thing? I've got a great LynxOne audio card. My pre is super clean with a transformer input. I use a Paranormal bass DI. Its a super chain from instrument to recorded track. I do use EQ to help it fit right but that only goes so far. Maybe it is a combo of DI and amp that will take it to next level? Is this a digital mix thing..or... Do guys that mix on an analog console have the same issue? I'm hearing some great bass guitar that jumps right out at you on commercial music that I love. Whats the magic bullet?

Bob the Mod guy.

Which bass? The 40-100 one, or the 'handles' -overtones, saturation tones' 400-1k ones?


add- In the FWIW column- Generally track both, if one gets left out, slightly more likely to dump the mic.

 

[Bob's Mods]

Compress the bass and use a low pass filter set at about 150hz and see what happens in the mix.

Rok, great suggestion. I experimented with rolling the lows off at 65Hz to 85Hz at 24dB. Pushing down those very deep frequencies went a long way to improving how well the bass guitar's mids and upper mids sit in the mix. The bass track now sits in the mix in such a way it can be heard. Keep in mind I also scan for and notch out resonance frequencies which usually occur around 140Hz to 150Hz. Notching out the resonance in the bass range is a critical factor as well. I add a touch of compression to catch the peaks.

 

[mattr]

With the little recording I've done, I've tended to use a blend of both.

I find the DI from the Hartke amp I record on gives the defined 'twang' sound of the pickups, whereas the mic gives depth with nice strong bass. You can mix the two and get a nice combination.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Rok, great suggestion. I experimented with rolling the lows off at 65Hz to 85Hz at 24dB. Pushing down those very deep frequencies went a long way to improving how well the bass guitar's mids and upper mids sit in the mix. The bass track now sits in the mix in such a way it can be heard. Keep in mind I also scan for and notch out resonance frequencies which usually occur around 140Hz to 150Hz. Notching out the resonance in the bass range is a critical factor as well. I add a touch of compression to catch the peaks.

Excellent start. I'd augment that by making similar (and often mirror-image) moves on the other side of the mix; the guitars.

Often times, IME, the problem with disappearing bass can be summed up in three words: Too Much Guitar.

This can and usually does mean several things, including having the guitars too forward in the mix or too dominant in the arrangement so that nothing other than triggered drum samples and highly-compressed vocals can penetrate, but in this context I'll emphasize the idea that too much guitar can include the guitars crowding out the bass' place in the frequency spectrum

I'd look at rolling off the guitars with a high-pass somewhere in the mid-100s Hz, getting rid of any "death scoop" EQing on most of the guitar, performing the same kind of parametric scan on them as you do on the bass, and notching out of the guitar a key frequency or two for the bass where the bass' main attack and key body are located.

G.

 

[Whale Bone]

Rok, great suggestion. I experimented with rolling the lows off at 65Hz to 85Hz at 24dB. Pushing down those very deep frequencies went a long way to improving how well the bass guitar's mids and upper mids sit in the mix. The bass track now sits in the mix in such a way it can be heard. Keep in mind I also scan for and notch out resonance frequencies which usually occur around 140Hz to 150Hz. Notching out the resonance in the bass range is a critical factor as well. I add a touch of compression to catch the peaks.

Basically, the same thing has worked very well for me, too.

Though I have been experimenting with recording both mic and DI (when I can make that much noise), and I find the mic'd amp accentuates the right mid-range chunk to cut through without doing much EQ'ing or compressing.

Also had a great live experience recently where my 60's Ampeg B-12 was mic'd with a Sennheiser 421 and mixed with a Countryman DI. The mic caught most of the bottom end and the DI filled in the mids (seems it usually works the other way around, but we had the best luck like this)

 

[Bob's Mods]

Over all the results have improved rather nicely by really sculpting the low range. I've got a good EQ so its easy for me to really tweak the low end. Sculpting the low end is so critical to getting a great mix. Its an art. The DI bass lines sound respectable now. I can live with the result.

 

[Bob's Mods]

If anyone is interested in listening to a demo I did using the EQ sculpting methods discussed....give a listen.

http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?id=13291

The two electric guitars were mic'd. The bass was DI. The drums are more or less a basic routine, nothing fancy using Session Drummer II.

 

[Elton Bear]

Nice guitar sound! The bass sounds OK to me, but my ears definitely need training in that area and my hi-fi system sucks, so don't trust my opinion 100%

Most successful recording I've done has been at my colleges, so I've access to nice gear and rooms. Best bass sound I've got was a T-Bass through a nice Focusrite valve (I think) Pre, with a bit of built-in compression. Other than that, I usually record both if possible and mix to taste.

 

[Bob's Mods]

Even doing my best, getting the bass to really zing out, is an issue. Its better than it was however. The bass does better on the original wav file. MP3 don't seem work as well in the lower range.

 

[mixsit]

Man, I'm barely hearing it once in a while on small pc speakers. Even it's mostly low end tone(?) I should pick it up some on these little guys. I guessing 'very round/soft attack tone/playing' (no handles' again?) or level's down.. or both.

--'Handles' -- If it is that.. (Please excuse the big presumption here ) -try the same but picking more forcefully and/or closer to the bridge.
Done

 

[Daisy]

If anyone is interested in listening to a demo I did using the EQ sculpting methods discussed....give a listen.

http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?id=13291

The two electric guitars were mic'd. The bass was DI. The drums are more or less a basic routine, nothing fancy using Session Drummer II.

Your bass is all low end, and no midrange.

Try dialing down the lows and low-mids on the bass itself before you even track. All the rumbly low end stuff ... might feel kind of cool while sound-checking or playing out, but there's no definition at all going on with your tracks. Try replacing the strings also, if you haven't already.

This is all about your bass ... it's tone, and how you've dialed it in. Come to think of it, you probably would experience a noticeable improvement if you were to amp it up, as it can help emphasize some of the midrange that's very obviously MIA in your recording.

 

[witzendoz]

Hi,

I have been recording bass for years, also mixing live and I am a bass player, I have used Mic only Di only and the Mic and Di approach.

I have found no one rule applies, some basses sound good just DIed some sound better with a mic. As a rule when tracking I record a DI to one track and a mic to another, try to ensure they are in phase before recording as the DI and Mic could well be out of phase. You will hear this by blending the 2 tracks to monitors, if the bass thins out with the 2 blended it is probably out of phase. I also sometimes record with compression sometimes without, it depends on the style of music and the player.

Double bass always needs a mic, however if the bass has a pick up record this as well as some blending could help the sound in the mix.

OK, so we are in a situation where we can only DI (crap amp, too much spill from drums, etc, etc) and the sound does not really work, then later when mixing, feed the DI track back to a bass amp and mic it, then record the miced track. This also lets you fine tune the amp sound to what you need, it does not need to be a loud amp, a good practice amp will do.

When mixing you often find that the best bass sound in the mix often sounds like crap when soloed, well if it works in the mix use it. If there is a part where the bass is playing on its own then set up another channel with a cleaner sound for that part.

Making bass sit in the mix is one of the hardest things to do but when you get it right it's so satisfying

Cheers

Alan.

 

[Rokket]

Compress the bass and use a low pass filter set at about 150hz and see what happens in the mix.

Ah, shit! I meant a high pass filter. Damn, how did I screw that one up?