Finishes

  • Thread starter Thread starter Nick_Black
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Zaphod B said:
This actually looks like a regimen that can be learned by a non-professional such as myself. Can the shellac wash coats be applied by wiping rather than spraying?
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Yes but you need a light touch if you have aniline dyes on there. They are soluble in alcohol. An alternative would be to use a Preval type spray can just to seal it up. Cheap and you don't need to body it up so it would be fine. Just be careful if you do spray it in an enclosed area. As it's alchohol based you will get either, pissed on the fumes or bar-b-qued by the vapour explosion...:D
 
muttley600 said:
An alternative would be to use a Preval type spray can just to seal it up.
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I actually have a Preval unit that I bought a few years ago for some project I didn't end up using it for. They are pretty cool - you can spray just about any liquid with them.
 
Zaphod B said:
I actually have a Preval unit that I bought a few years ago for some project I didn't end up using it for. They are pretty cool - you can spray just about any liquid with them.
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Yeh, they are OK as long as you don't need a wide or even fan pattern. Ideal for sealing or even bodying up if you haven't got a decent spray gun. Better than rattle cans in that regard because you can also mix and thin to your needs. Usual caveat though. Be safe..Always be aware of spray mist and it's short and long term hazard to health. :D
 
muttley600 said:
I'll step back and let Light steer you away from nitro as well now, but before I do, donkeystyle who told you this?

It's rubbish. Not getting at you, it just it aint true. :)

As to the effect of a finish on an instrument. You are going to notice differences on acoustic instruments more than electrics and you can never really tell how much effect it has even then. As a rule you want as little as possible to give you a durable lasting protection to the wood. In the case of your first instrument go with whatever is easiest and keep it simple first time.

Having said that if any finish does kill the tone of your wood it would be polyester. I'm not to keen on the Urethane finishes I've seen either but on a first instrument thats not your biggest concern IMHO.
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I wasn't stating it as 100% fact. It's a theory and I've read it and heard it from many, many people.

In fact, Light has said that nitro is the best sounding finish. I don't believe he's ever said anything about the theory behind it though. He believes from experience that nitro sounds best. < apparently light never said that. sorry Light.
 
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donkeystyle said:
cellulose= plants/wood
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I wasn't stating it as 100% fact. It's a theory and I've read it and heard it from many, many people.

In fact, Light has said that nitro is the best sounding finish. I don't believe he's ever said anything about the theory behind it though. He believes from experience that nitro sounds best.
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Well thats fine like I said I'm not having a pop at you. Having said that here's a few big BUTS.;)

Just because nitrocellulose is a cellulose derivative doesn't make it a "natural" product like wood. Nitrocellulose is actually a very powerful nitrate. It is made by exposure of cellulose to nitric acid. There are other finishes that a are far more "natural". French polish for example is entirely natural being made from insect secretions and alcohol. A huge amount of the worlds shellac production goes into coating pills!!

Most violin varnishes are made from a combination of among other things, walnut oil, pine rosin, linseed oil, the list goes on. That said, again there are plenty of nasty finishing mixes and formulations. In terms of application and handling nitro is one of the most troublesome in some regards.

The acoustic benefits of nitro over other finishes has never been proven or to be honest no one has really examined it closely. It is a good finish I don't deny it. I wouldn't quote Light on his understanding personally he may hold it in high regard, so do I, but I'd bet he'd qualify it as an opinion and gained from personal experience. I'm good with that if thats his opinion, it's pretty close to mine. I use nitro on most of my work, but I am setup to handle it correctly. Add to that that a good deal of my customers demand it. They don't know why but they do.

I wouldn't knock other finishes and I doubt light would because one thing I'm fairly certain of is that via experience he has a good understanding of the complexities involved in a judgment like that. Ultimately I'll let the guy speak for himself. I would never say "nitro sounds best" because it simply isn't true because we don't know what THE best sound is..:D

I'm sure Light will be along soon and if he has the any sense he'll leave me to blag this one.;)
 
donkeystyle said:
I wasn't stating it as 100% fact. It's a theory and I've read it and heard it from many, many people.

In fact, Light has said that nitro is the best sounding finish. I don't believe he's ever said anything about the theory behind it though. He believes from experience that nitro sounds best.
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I'm pretty sure that I've said that some people THINK nitro is the best sounding finish, that I think it looks the best (most of the water borne stuff looks blue to me), and also that it is the most traditional finish, but sounds best? I'm 100% certain I don't actually know. If there is a difference in sound, it is more than covered up by too many other factors to really be sure.

I have to use it, because in our shop we do a lot of touchup work, and the idea of running two sets of chemistry through our both is enough to give me the hebbie jebbies.

Unless you have a full, professional, explosion proof spray both, don't use it. Sure, you're unlikely to go up in a large fireball, but it is a real chance, and it would just ruin you day. Actually, you probably wouldn't care much, but your friends and family probably would care a lot, so it would ruin THEIR day.

The stuff you get from LMI and Stew Mac are both very high quality products, they are easier to apply (you can brush or wipe them on, which you can not do with nitro, at least not easily), and they polish out very well. They are also a lot faster. Even if I rush through the process, and don't have to do ANY touchups, it still takes me about a month to finish a guitar with nitro (it usually takes me longer). With the LMI or Stew Mac stuff, you can get that down to a week or two with no rushing.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
I have a related question. Those of you who build hollow-bodied instruments: do you put a finish or a sealer on the inside of the instrument? I think my acoustics are unfinished inside, but I can't be sure there isn't something thin there that I'm not seeing.
 
danw said:
I have a related question. Those of you who build hollow-bodied instruments: do you put a finish or a sealer on the inside of the instrument? I think my acoustics are unfinished inside, but I can't be sure there isn't something thin there that I'm not seeing.
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Some do, most don't. It's not really needed.
 
Light said:
I'm pretty sure that I've said that some people THINK nitro is the best sounding finish, that I think it looks the best (most of the water borne stuff looks blue to me), and also that it is the most traditional finish, but sounds best? I'm 100% certain I don't actually know. If there is a difference in sound, it is more than covered up by too many other factors to really be sure.
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Maybe I saw you write the best looking and replaced looking with sounding in my head. I don't know. I could have sworn that I had read a post where you said that in your opinion nitro was the best sounding finish.
 
Light said:
Good product in the cans, but cans suck - it's almost impossible to make them really look great.


Oh yeah, and they make you go BOOM!!!!



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
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IMO a good painter can do just as good a job with cans. Good paint is good paint, only difference being that you have to get used to a different flow, just as if you had a new gun. Guitar ReRanch sells nitro in factory colors, but they're pricy like any good paint.
 
Guitarer said:
IMO a good painter can do just as good a job with cans. Good paint is good paint, only difference being that you have to get used to a different flow, just as if you had a new gun. Guitar ReRanch sells nitro in factory colors, but they're pricy like any good paint.
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Well your wrong, but we have both pointed this out in the past, and it's not like we're telling you this stuff to stop you using it for any other reason than to try and steer people in the right direction. Just that you will get much better results using other easily available products. If either of us had a protective agenda or some such why would we post the advice we do and give detailed instructions on the best way to do stuff yourself? If we say something really isn't that great or something else is better or there is a better way it's usually because we know.

An example, If you really really want to use nitro, forget the Reraunch stuff and get a preval system, the tips/nossles are better and mix up your own nitro mix with the best amount of thinner, flowout , retarder. You can then mix up what you need when you want it. You can also control your flow by switching air cans before it starts to spit and you can get a selection of nozzle sizes all of which are better than rattle cans, but not perfect. You could also put on the right sealer and spray tints of your choice using the same system. The cost would be about the same you'd get a better chance of doing a good job and you'll have the nitro finish you desperately want. Just don't come round here bleating when you've blown up your shed/shop/kitchen/garage etc or you haven't managed to get the right pressure to body up without getting lips and roll offs on your edge work.

All that said I still maintain anyone would be better off going for the waterborne or tru oil option unless you have the correct setup to body up nitro. Good luck.
 
I tried the reranch cans and sprayed a great finish.

Yes, the reranch cans are pricey...but the colors are correct.

You can get cheaper paint and shoot just as goodlooking a finish but ...it's hard to find a cheap spraycan paint match for vintage guitar colors. Thats what reranch specializes in...lake placid blue nitro that is CORRECT...les paul gold top gold that is CORRECT....surf green that is CORRECT.

If you just want a guitar light green and it dosen't have to be the vintage correct color "surf green"...you can save money on the paint and buy it at autozone.


I agree that if someone is going to finish several guitars it would be better to invest in the proper equipment...but if you're just going to do one or 2 guitars I would go with the reranch cans.
A novice can read the reranch step by step instructions for the particular color at hand (to avoid fisheyes, runs, sags, and blushing of the paint) and do it.
It take some care, preparation, and patiance but it's not rocket science.
If you dust on light coats of paint, paint in low humidity, and paint when the climate is mild... you will get good results
(IF you're willing to put enough elbow grease into cutting and buffing the finish in stages with increasingly finer gritted sandpaper on a small sanding block)
 
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I forgot to mention that I always use an open flamed propane heater, in a non ventiated closed room while I'm spraying nitro....it bakes the paint on real good.
:cool::D
 
jimistone said:
I tried the reranch cans and sprayed a great finish.

Yes, the reranch cans are pricey...but the colors are correct.

You can get cheaper paint and shoot just as goodlooking a finish but ...it's hard to find a cheap spraycan paint match for vintage guitar colors. Thats what reranch specializes in...lake placid blue nitro that is CORRECT...les paul gold top gold that is CORRECT....surf green that is CORRECT.

If you just want a guitar light green and it dosen't have to be the vintage correct color "surf green"...you can save money on the paint and buy it at autozone.


I agree that if someone is going to finish several guitars it would be better to invest in the proper equipment...but if you're just going to do one or 2 guitars I would go with the reranch cans.
A novice can read the reranch step by step instructions for the particular color at hand (to avoid fisheyes, runs, sags, and blushing of the paint) and do it.
It take some care, preparation, and patiance but it's not rocket science.
If you dust on light coats of paint, paint in low humidity, and paint when the climate is mild... you will get good results
(IF you're willing to put enough elbow grease into cutting and buffing the finish in stages with increasingly finer gritted sandpaper on a small sanding block)
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Exactly. I thought I read somewhere in the thread that the threadstarter did not have spray equipment to begin with, and it seems nitro is the way he wants to go. I apologize if I'm incorrect here, as I only skimmed the thread, but if this is a one-off thing, rattlecans are surely the way to go. A rattlecan job can look just as good as a spraygun job in the right hands, but there's no denying that a spraygun doesn't require as much care to look good, and the limitless color choices make the equipment worth it only if you're constantly painting things. Chances are TS doesn't have a spraybooth anyway, so to spend the money on all that stuff without the proper environment would be ridiculous. It's just like how you guys on here are always preaching that it's ridiculous to have a Neumann when your room sounds like crap.
 
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