With all of this talk about 'the source being the most important aspect...'

[Steve Henningsgard]

As 'amateur' or 'semi-pro' Engineers/Producers, shouldn't we be trying to convince bigger local/semi-local bands to record with us for free, vs. busting our asses making shit bands sound mediocre? I mean, to a certain point it's good to get whatever experience we can, but once you get to the point that you know where to point the damn microphone, and you've got equipment that's good enough to not hold you back, I'd think it'd be better to work for free on as many bigger bands as you can (say for pre-production work or free demo's), vs. taking anything that comes through the door in the hopes that something you do will get you bigger business. In reality, aren't we just putting our names on horrible shit? Thus becoming known, at best, as "the guy(s) who make(s) shitty bands sound good"?

Just a thought I had...

 

[MCI2424]

As 'amateur' or 'semi-pro' Engineers/Producers, shouldn't we be trying to convince bigger local/semi-local bands to record with us for free, vs. busting our asses making shit bands sound mediocre? I mean, to a certain point it's good to get whatever experience we can, but once you get to the point that you know where to point the damn microphone, and you've got equipment that's good enough to not hold you back, I'd think it'd be better to work for free on as many bigger bands as you can (say for pre-production work or free demo's), vs. taking anything that comes through the door in the hopes that something you do will get you bigger business. In reality, aren't we just putting our names on horrible shit? Thus becoming known, at best, as "the guy(s) who make(s) shitty bands sound good"?

Just a thought I had...

The problem is that once you get to the point where you can make a shitty band sound good, you just get more shittier bands knocking on your door wanting free recording. Once 1 piece of equipment breaks, try asking them to help you pay for repairs or replacement and watch the smoke off their heels through the door. Bigger bands are no better either. Once you pave the "free" way. it is hard to make them pay. Try it and see. Once money is discussed, they will look to other studios and find a few reasons why, if they have to pay, they should go there.

 

[Steve Henningsgard]

The problem is that once you get to the point where you can make a shitty band sound good, you just get more shittier bands knocking on your door wanting free recording. Once 1 piece of equipment breaks, try asking them to help you pay for repairs or replacement and watch the smoke off their heels through the door. Bigger bands are no better either. Once you pave the "free" way. it is hard to make them pay. Try it and see. Once money is discussed, they will look to other studios and find a few reasons why, if they have to pay, they should go there.

A fair point: how about instead of free, charge 'em (the good bands) something cheap per song, like $50 or something. Charge the shit bands your standard $15-50/hour or whatever you charge. That way, the bigger bands know your rates, and thus might view the $50/song pre-production/demo's as a fair trade?

 

[mwthompson]

I don't do studio work for a living, but I do provide technical services (in another field) and personally would never do free or reduced priced work. You will end up stuck, and in the long run are selling yourself short. Especially, if you're good at what you do. I would market more aggressively, visit clubs and talk with bands, bug all your connections (to a limit, don't want to be avoided), etc. before giving away free or reduced cost work.

There's also the issue of looking unprofessional. Giving away your services looks desperate and, IMHO, makes a professional look insecure in his/her abilities. Kinda like dating. The guy who acts aloof and uncompromising seems more attractive than the desperate one who goes broke buying too many flowers and teddy bears and still gets nowhere.

I'd find a different way to drum up business without compromising your pricing. You're a professional, and you're there to make money. You just have to make everyone know they need you to record their stuff.



EDIT: Btw, I'm not calling you a sappy she-man, just using the dating analogy as an example.

 

[mwthompson]

Oh, and charge everyone the same! Word gets around and some people will get pissed when they hear someone else got a better deal for the same service.

Happy customers usually don't talk much, but the pissed off ones will tell everyone and anyone they know if they think you screwed them, right or wrong.

 

[pipelineaudio]

pro bands of today arent necessarily going to be any better than a local band. Many have probably never played a lick in their life of the instrument ascribed to them, and those that have aren't capable of playing the parts ascribed to them

 

[Steve Henningsgard]

All good points: perhaps I should have written a disclaimer that I'm happily fully-booked 98% of the time (up until mid-march or so as of now). I meant to have the thread go in a more philosophical route than strictly practical, but I suppose it's a discussion that's been had many times before, and thus doesn't really inspire anyone to wax philosophical on the subject

 

[SonicAlbert]

If you do free or reduced rates all you will get will be more lousy bands. Probably lousier than what you get with low rates.

If you want to get better bands you actually need to charge *more*. That is of course assuming you know what you are doing.

 

[JuliánFernández]

As 'amateur' or 'semi-pro' Engineers/Producers, shouldn't we be trying to convince bigger local/semi-local bands to record with us for free, vs. busting our asses making shit bands sound mediocre? I mean, to a certain point it's good to get whatever experience we can, but once you get to the point that you know where to point the damn microphone, and you've got equipment that's good enough to not hold you back, I'd think it'd be better to work for free on as many bigger bands as you can (say for pre-production work or free demo's), vs. taking anything that comes through the door in the hopes that something you do will get you bigger business. In reality, aren't we just putting our names on horrible shit? Thus becoming known, at best, as "the guy(s) who make(s) shitty bands sound good"?

Just a thought I had...

I´m with you Steve... I don´t record band as a living, in fact I´m a musician, and let me tell you that most of the time I see people posting audio clips of a drum take, for example, and they ask for advice on how to make the drums punchier, without even thinking that with a crappy drummer no engineer can make a huge sounding take...

I think that most of the time amateurs/semipro engineers fail in first learning how certain instrument should sound live... And I don´t mean to listening to records, but one on one experience... Listening how hard a pro drummer hits the drums, understanding why he´s hitting the rim, knowing what kind of sticks is he/she using...
And the only way to have that kind of knowledge -that I know, at least- is to record pro musicians...

Everyone in this thread talked about how bad it would be to your business, but if you´re serious about learning/progessing, you MUST spend quality time recording pro musicians... Let me put it this way... I would pay LOTS of money to be able record a whole session with Steve Gadd and Anthony Jackson as the rhythm section...

One quality of most succesful musicians that I know (and this may sound silly), is that all of them found *their* way to learn the craft, and in some ways all the time invested made them wiser (musically wise).

So, make your own way! Go out there, find GREAT musicians or GREAT bands and record them! Screw the money... It will be more rewarding and fun!

 

[pezking]

Julian makes some good points...

I record some bands at home every now and then for a bit of cash. They're not usually that good, so I don't gain much out of it apart from cash.

I've learned the most from recording a handful of semi-pro bands for free. Because money is not an issue on such a session, the bands are willing to take longer over tracking, so if I wasn't happy with the sound of something I had a lot more time to go and fix it. The atmosphere was also a lot more relaxed because of the feeling that we had more time which meant we all worked better.

Of course if your studio is your main source of income then it might be worse in the sort term to do free sessions, but who knows it might well be a great learning experience and if you get along with the musicians (and their music!) you'll certainly enjoy yourselves.

 

[LemonTree]

if you're good at what you do set your price point.

theres nothing wrong with implimenting a 50% off for first time recording or a further reduction for a second booking. Word of mouth from happy customers generate more custom.

That system worked for me

 

[Daisy]

Why stop there?

Why not just tell your boss not to bother cutting your check the next pay period?

As long as you don't mind working and not getting paid ... then to that extent, I think you've got a very legitimate and valid strategy there.

.

 

[LemonTree]

Why stop there?

Why not just tell your boss not to bother cutting your check the next pay period?

.

cause I'm the boss

 

[Daisy]

cause I'm the boss

Then you cut me the check.

 

[JuliánFernández]

I think that you´re missing the point... I make my living playing drums, and most of the time i charge bands for my services BUT I know that I would PAY to play certain gigs! Because I´m not doing this for the money, i´m doing this beacuase I love to play music. And I always try to improve, and gain more experience and knowledge... (oh, btw, if it makes your feel better you can ask Mr. Colaiuta whom did some work for almost nothing for a local band in a little spare time between his usual work.)

I know a lot of guys that start running an studio or work freelance that won´t take a session if there´s no money involved...
I think they´re on the wrong track.
I would record an amazing band without a doubt even if they can not pay me.

It´s my point of view... Having good gear it´s really easy, any fool can buy great pres and mics. Only smart and passionate people play (or record) great music.

Keep looking for your check, meanwhile I´ll be touring the world and playing with amazing musicians!

 

[SonicAlbert]

Only smart and passionate people play (or record) great music.

Keep looking for your check, meanwhile I´ll be touring the world and playing with amazing musicians!

Having already toured many parts of the world and played with amazing musicians myself, I seriously doubt that advertising yourself as working for free will get you there. I think that approach would potentially smack of desperation, or at least would be perceived that way by the people that you'd want to be working with.

Any of us that have done this professionally for a while have taken the beating that you naturally do in this business. We've taken the hard knocks, survived the disappointments, and enjoyed the successes, all the while trying to pay the bills and move forward to better things. You know all this, as this is what you do too.

Money is a big part of the business. Most of the time, the best gigs as far as the best musicians also are the gigs that pay the best. Everyone there has paid their dues, for the most part. To be available to work for free would be viewed with suspicion and as a threat, since your desire to work for free will potentially cost them their income.

No, what I said earlier in this thread is the best advice: if you want to work with better folks, *raise your rates*. That starts to weed out the dead beats and wanna-be's.

I know your feeling about loving something so much you'd do it for free, but to actually *do it for free*, that would be a huge mistake. I might do something for a reduced rate, as a favor or if it is indeed a really cool gig and I know the economics just aren't that great. But in the music business, money often equals respect. And I think it's important that there always be at least a token of respect toward the musicians.

 

[Farview]

If you do a project for free, it will be a double CD concept album that takes 2 years to perfect. If you charge the same band, it will be a 3 song demo.

The band won't have distribution in either case, so you're still pissing up a rope.

 

[pipelineaudio]

If you do a project for free, it will be a double CD concept album that takes 2 years to perfect. If you charge the same band, it will be a 3 song demo.

The band won't have distribution in either case, so you're still pissing up a rope.

WISE WISE words!

We've had plenty of people storming out "WHAT? You dont charge per song? FUCK YOU!"

good riddance

 

[JuliánFernández]

Having already toured many parts of the world and played with amazing musicians myself, I seriously doubt that advertising yourself as working for free will get you there. I think that approach would potentially smack of desperation, or at least would be perceived that way by the people that you'd want to be working with.

Any of us that have done this professionally for a while have taken the beating that you naturally do in this business. We've taken the hard knocks, survived the disappointments, and enjoyed the successes, all the while trying to pay the bills and move forward to better things. You know all this, as this is what you do too.

Money is a big part of the business. Most of the time, the best gigs as far as the best musicians also are the gigs that pay the best. Everyone there has paid their dues, for the most part. To be available to work for free would be viewed with suspicion and as a threat, since your desire to work for free will potentially cost them their income.

No, what I said earlier in this thread is the best advice: if you want to work with better folks, *raise your rates*. That starts to weed out the dead beats and wanna-be's.

I know your feeling about loving something so much you'd do it for free, but to actually *do it for free*, that would be a huge mistake. I might do something for a reduced rate, as a favor or if it is indeed a really cool gig and I know the economics just aren't that great. But in the music business, money often equals respect. And I think it's important that there always be at least a token of respect toward the musicians.

Albert, my comments weren´t directed to someone like you, a seasoned pro... It thought that it was obvious...

Recording pros is a must to became a great engineer; if you are recording pros already and getting paid at the same time, you´re ahead in the game...
My comments were directed to someone who´s learning/improving the craft (as Steve seems to be)...

Anyways, sometimes is healthy to forget about money, and remembering why are we doing this... And the comment about not being worthy to record a band w/o distribution is just ...

Is like not attending to jam sessions because noone is recording them...

 

[Farview]

And the comment about not being worthy to record a band w/o distribution is just ...

I do plenty of bands without distribution. But they pay.

Doing a band for free because they might make it some day is a waste of time. All it does is show them that your services are not worth anything. When they get money, they will go to someone who charges too much because his time is worth something.

Do it for cheap, but not free. If they have a small budget, tell them that you will give them a break and give them X hours for that price. If they are close to getting it done in that time but not quite, do them a favor and finish it without charging more.