Reaction to your songs...
- Thread starter Salabim
- Start date
dragonworks
Banned
Is that really the standard form?
Henri Devill
New member
Yup thats the standard form for most "pop" songs..Ya unfortunately V V C V C B CC..The audience has no imagination.. LOL..Then you gotta get in the song and out of the song in under 3 mins..
Don
Don
dragonworks
Banned
Whats a bridge? Is there another term for it. I looked it up in my classical dictionary and there was no mention of it? If the form deviates in any way from the above mentioned is it no longer in standard form?
Henri Devill
New member
D.W,Lets see...A Bridge is a basicly a section that makes a different musical/lyrical statment between the choruses...Sorta gives a "releif between choruses..it is usally a short section..Sometimes a musical break can be a bridge..
Maybe "Standard" is too stronge a term..Lets call it common.
Their are songs that are V/C V/C V/C ect.
And their are songs that are V/V B/V
And V / V/ V..The refains are in the last or starting lines of the verse..These are also know as A A A ,story songs gererally are in this form also Dylan has used this form..Jimmy Webb's "By the Time I get to Phoenix" The hook is in the first lines {title ect.}
By the time I get to Phoenix..First line of song..
By the time I make Albuquerque..First line of second verse..
By the time I make Oklahoma..First line of third verse..
This is triple A form..Then you can have A/B A/B A/B
Same as trip A with bridges between...I'm babblein' now..LOL.Sheila Davis has a couple of books with forms in it..Good luck
Don
Maybe "Standard" is too stronge a term..Lets call it common.
Their are songs that are V/C V/C V/C ect.
And their are songs that are V/V B/V
And V / V/ V..The refains are in the last or starting lines of the verse..These are also know as A A A ,story songs gererally are in this form also Dylan has used this form..Jimmy Webb's "By the Time I get to Phoenix" The hook is in the first lines {title ect.}
By the time I get to Phoenix..First line of song..
By the time I make Albuquerque..First line of second verse..
By the time I make Oklahoma..First line of third verse..
This is triple A form..Then you can have A/B A/B A/B
Same as trip A with bridges between...I'm babblein' now..LOL.Sheila Davis has a couple of books with forms in it..Good luck
Don
dragonworks
Banned
Its just that I have been writing songs for 35 years and I have found no standard form?
atomictoyz
New member
I don't want to make this complex, but music in the classical sense has specific forms that define what it is. For instance a sonata has a certain formula that all sonatas follow for the most part. Your popular radio music also follows that to a certain level. Have you ever had to jam with another band and the leader says, were doing a 12 bar blues in A, AABA watch for the tempo change in the D section? Operas, sonatas,concertos etc...all have traditional forms, but somebody had to invent them though. Maybe my daughters will be learning 15 bar thrash with the DW form...
Peace,
Dennis
Peace,
Dennis
VOXVENDOR
New member
dragonworks said:
Thats just it.. there IS no standard form.... BUT......
What Salabim is talking about is the rough template that most modern pop songs follow...
And yes Salabim, I have noticed that my simplest 3 chord catchy tunes are the most popular ones....
Sometimes I spend a week writing a complicated tune and there just seems to be too much info, for a regular listener to dig.
Look at "Smells Like Teen Spirit".. Arguably one of the most liked and popular rock songs of the 90's.. 4 chords....
The Verse and Chorus is even the SAME chord structure in that song....
Interesting....
Great thread...
three-chord-stone
Simplicity seems to be the key. I know a lot of musicians who look down on 3-chord songs because they're just "too simple," (especially jazz musicians).
Non-musicians don't listen for chord changes though - they just know if they like the song.
There are a few extremely popular songs that have some pretty complex chord changes, "Yesterday" and "Backbird" come to mind.
Still, it's amazing what has been done with just I, IV and V.
Tucci
Simplicity seems to be the key. I know a lot of musicians who look down on 3-chord songs because they're just "too simple," (especially jazz musicians).
Non-musicians don't listen for chord changes though - they just know if they like the song.
There are a few extremely popular songs that have some pretty complex chord changes, "Yesterday" and "Backbird" come to mind.
Still, it's amazing what has been done with just I, IV and V.
Tucci
A bridge is actually a term from classical music. It describes
a piece of music that acts as a bridge from one section
to another. Think of the prelude being based on a
4 chord progression in C and the first movement
being in Ebm. The bridge would take you from one
section to the other.
In rock, pop & other modern music the bridge usually
describes a section in the song that is different. It's
used to break it up, add some interest & drama.
It usually doesn't "bridge" though since it takes you
from the chorus back to the chorus (for example).
I guess you could say in pop music the bridge is a
bridge to nowhere.
Dave
a piece of music that acts as a bridge from one section
to another. Think of the prelude being based on a
4 chord progression in C and the first movement
being in Ebm. The bridge would take you from one
section to the other.
In rock, pop & other modern music the bridge usually
describes a section in the song that is different. It's
used to break it up, add some interest & drama.
It usually doesn't "bridge" though since it takes you
from the chorus back to the chorus (for example).
I guess you could say in pop music the bridge is a
bridge to nowhere.
Dave
Chris Shaeffer
Peavey ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is a certain accessability to "simple" song structures, yeah. That's not to say that all popular songs need to be "simple." Its also no mean feat to write a "simple" song that isn't boring. It takes a fair amount of musicianship (expressiveness, nuance, etc.) to get a 3 chord song to work well. That applies doubly to the lyrics- simple music and simple lyrics can be a recipe for yawns if they aren't done VERY well.
It also takes a high degree of musicianship to make a more coplex arrangement work, but its been done many times. Granted, the simpler structures tend to dominate the popular categories, that doesn't mean that simple is the ticket to having a popular song.
In the case of my songs, the most liked tunes that I have (in terms of a general audience- not my friends) are definately the less complex ones. I don't write many complex tunes, though, so I'm not really a fair sampling.
Yup, Vox- this is a good thread.
Oh- I have to agree that bridges are VERY important in simple structures. You only have one chance to throw in a different perspective and add some emphasis- it had better be good!
Take care,
Chris
It also takes a high degree of musicianship to make a more coplex arrangement work, but its been done many times. Granted, the simpler structures tend to dominate the popular categories, that doesn't mean that simple is the ticket to having a popular song.
In the case of my songs, the most liked tunes that I have (in terms of a general audience- not my friends) are definately the less complex ones. I don't write many complex tunes, though, so I'm not really a fair sampling.
Yup, Vox- this is a good thread.
Oh- I have to agree that bridges are VERY important in simple structures. You only have one chance to throw in a different perspective and add some emphasis- it had better be good!
Take care,
Chris
TexRoadkill
Audio Bum
Ever notice how it's the unusual songs that you dont like at first that end up becoming your favorites? It seems to me that the simple tunes that grab you right away also wear out their welcome just as quickly.
Chris Shaeffer
Peavey ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tex,
Yeah, I know that MY favorite songs are always the more intricate ones. But then, I'm a musician and musicians aren't the ones who get to decided what sounds good to everyone else.
And that's why those simple songs have to be 3 to 3.5 minutes.
They do wear out their welcome quickly if they aren't careful.
Chris
Yeah, I know that MY favorite songs are always the more intricate ones. But then, I'm a musician and musicians aren't the ones who get to decided what sounds good to everyone else.
And that's why those simple songs have to be 3 to 3.5 minutes.
They do wear out their welcome quickly if they aren't careful.Chris
George Parler
New member
Musicians like complexity in their structure of a song. To break away from pre-established molds. "To boldly go where no man has gone before." The only problem is that dosen't always sell to Joe and Sue Public, who tend to lean toward familiar, predicable song structures that most musicians, if not all, consider extremely mundane. And so we say, they haven't got a clue what good music is all about, the pioneering of new ground, the expression of individualism. And they say you haven't got a clue as to what we want to hear, and that is what determines what we buy. And alas, we musicians are left with just wading up on a music forum and braggin' on each other.
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George
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George
Hymns and rock and roll
Rock and roll sprouted from the fertile ground of hymns and spirituals. These songs were used by illiterate worshippers to teach their children, share with fellow members and express themselves to God.
If you look at any kind of teaching song or worship tune the most effectual are the repetitive and less complicated that are very rythmic and lyrical.
This feature carried over into R&R and pop music.
My favorite kind of music to sing is hymns because of the variety of ways I can play a theme. Each verse can be something familiar to the audience yet be delivered in a totally new way giving something old a completely different message.
Neophyte
Rock and roll sprouted from the fertile ground of hymns and spirituals. These songs were used by illiterate worshippers to teach their children, share with fellow members and express themselves to God.
If you look at any kind of teaching song or worship tune the most effectual are the repetitive and less complicated that are very rythmic and lyrical.
This feature carried over into R&R and pop music.
My favorite kind of music to sing is hymns because of the variety of ways I can play a theme. Each verse can be something familiar to the audience yet be delivered in a totally new way giving something old a completely different message.
Neophyte
George Parler
New member
Very true.
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George
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George