Grand Piano

[guitarfreak12]

I have a samson C01, old one, and a AT4040. How do I record a grand piano with one of these. The only reason I mentioned the Samson, which isn't very good, is because I might need both. So how do i do it. I've set a mic up on the outside edge where the lid is open and just centered it to the sound, and I got good stuff. But is there a better way with these mics. Aslo I have a bunch of SM58's. And some older SM58's which have a different sound.

 

[mshilarious]

I have a samson C01, old one, and a AT4040. How do I record a grand piano with one of these. The only reason I mentioned the Samson, which isn't very good, is because I might need both. So how do i do it. I've set a mic up on the outside edge where the lid is open and just centered it to the sound, and I got good stuff. But is there a better way with these mics. Aslo I have a bunch of SM58's. And some older SM58's which have a different sound.

With the 4040, give it some more space, like 5 feet or more in a good room. With the 58, you can usually find a balanced spot underneath the piano.

 

[guitarfreak12]

use both mics?

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Grand piano is one of the more demanding instruments to record if one is critical about their sound. There are a million ways to mic it depending upon desired sound, microphone types, quality of room, etc.

That Samson could be tough to make sound good with the grand, as would the 58s. If you have a decent room, you might want to first try using just the AT, setting it up outside the nearfield of the piano (i.e. farther from the piano than the length of the piano itself) to get a good, full sound of the whole instrument. The lid should be wide open for that appliction, with the mic facing in towards the underside of the lid.

If that is not a good option, try micing the AT inside the lid a few inches above middle C, 8"-12" below the hammers. Have the AT angled down to a point about halfway between the mic position and the hammers. Adjust this position left or right to emphasize the high or low strings, and forward or back a few inches to adjust between the honkey tonk hammers and the mellow strings. Adjust lid halway or full open to desired sound.

A third position would be at the heel of the piano, lid open, just outside of the piano boundary with the mic facing in towards the piano innards and the player. Here a few inches in any direction could make all the difference in the world in sound.

If you have access to a place that rents microphones, you might be best off getting a matched pair of condensors (large or small), using the second instde the piano option. Set them up as an X/Y coincident pair to get the full rangs of strings in a stereo spread. You can pan to taste, narrow or wide, but you'll get a much wider frequency spectrum than you would with a single mic. As long as you're renting, get a third LDC to place outside the nearfield as described in the fist example and use that to help fill the sound.

HTH,

G.

 

[guitarfreak12]

awesome, very detailed, thanks. I am pasting that into my trick book. I have access to some more mics through a friend who owns a studio, I'll borrow some. The location is a Church santuary. Very reverby. Nice sound in there so I think I'll back it up and get some proximity. Thanks again.

 

[mshilarious]

use both mics?

No, mine was a one-or-the-other approach. Both could be interesting, but I've never tried that.

Re: your last post, actually, backing up you lose proximity, which is a good thing in this case. "proximity" refers to enhanced bass response of a directional microphone within 12" of the source.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Yeah, I didn't get that either. Re-reading it, I think maybe he may have meant just the opposite, that he wanted to get some ambience.

'freak, if that church is as live as most curches are, you might want to mic inside the piano *and* mic outside, using the outide just to wet the internal miking sound a bit. But doing the fiarfield mic alone may wind up a bit on the smeared-sounding side.

But hey, there's only one way to find out. Leave yourself enough time to expiriment on location before you hit the red button. Could be you wind up doing something we haven't even discussed here. I gave you three or four ideas; there are 999,996 ideas left.

G.

 

[guitarfreak12]

yes I meant ambience, I have an older Rode NT1 which has omni I'll try that.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

yes I meant ambience, I have an older Rode NT1 which has omni I'll try that.

The NT1 is a cardioid mic, not an omni. But that's OK, that's what you want anyway.

G.

 

[mshilarious]

'freak, if that church is as live as most curches are, you might want to mic inside the piano *and* mic outside, using the outide just to wet the internal miking sound a bit. But doing the fiarfield mic alone may wind up a bit on the smeared-sounding side.

Glen, in my experience the liveness of churches is mainly a handicap for live sound (and oh how I have suffered because of that!) For recording they are often great.

Moral of the story: try it both ways. I wouldn't go much past 5 feet though, unless you want your piano to have an organ feel

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Moral of the story: try it both ways. I wouldn't go much past 5 feet though, unless you want your piano to have an organ feel

Yeah, it's kind of a catch-22 there. At 5 feet you're still in the piano's nearfield (unless it's the smallest of baby grands), which somewhat obviates many of the advantages to distance miking. Yet you get too far out and you'll get more church than piano.

You're right, sometimes that church sound is fantastic on tape. I have a friend who bought an old church and converted it into a studio (the CR is, appropriately enough, right where the altar used to be ) and he gets some fantastic natural verb when he wants it.

And you're also right that he should try it both ways...and probably more. I suppose it all really depends upon what sound he is really looking for. My recommendation made some assumptions for the type of sound he might want, and I was probably wrong to do that. All I was trying to say was that if he wanted to get crisp piano and get some of the room with it, that the good ol' wet/dry mix might be the way to go.

I'll bet you $10 bucks that he winds up with something that doesn't quite match what either of us is recommending . It almost always works that way.

But 'freak, mshilarious is also giving you good advice right down the line. Take what we are suggesting as starting point advice and work from there. And here's hoping you don't have to work it too hard.

G.

 

[mshilarious]

I'll bet you $10 bucks that he winds up with something that doesn't quite match what either of us is recommending . It almost always works that way.

Nah I ain't taking that bet

I'll share my worst experience micing grand piano though. I set up a Beyer M88 (think 58, but much nicer) in a sweet spot under the piano as I often do for live/recording gigs. I set up everything else, rung out the always troublesome monitors, then there was no time for a soundcheck (6:00 Mass end, 8:00 show and I had to carry in & set up everything). Plus those pesky elderly churchgoers show up a half-hour early for the concert, so there is no point.

So the band starts, during the first song I get all the levels right. By the third song I'm working on helping the recording to the extent I can, and the piano just sounds awful. Not a big problem for the show, because it's >50% direct sound anyway, but my tape is miserable.

After some radical EQ changes, I notice that the mic has turned 45 degrees off axis to the piano! How did THAT happen? I can't run in front of the altar to fix it, so I suffer in silence until intermission


Moral of the story: don't do that!


I've finally gotten the gear down to the point where I can set up an extra mic just to record the piano, so I next time think I'm gonna put a pair of SDCs outside the piano just for the recording

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

After some radical EQ changes, I notice that the mic has turned 45 degrees off axis to the piano! How did THAT happen? I can't run in front of the altar to fix it, so I suffer in silence until intermission

Hahaha. yeah I feel your pain. It musta saw a cute Royer out in the audience and got a case of the swivelheads.

G.

 

[guitarfreak12]

The NT1 is a cardioid mic, not an omni. But that's OK, that's what you want anyway.

G.

I have an Older NT1, it has switchable patterns

 

[guitarfreak12]

I tried it with my Rode mic in a omni pattern, and iit worked the best from about 3 1/2 feet out from the opening.

 

[blueroommusic]

a couple more suggestions if you're interested:

1) get a matched pair, and do an ORTF pattern about 4-5 feet away from the lid pointed straight at the lid.

2) look on the internet to try and find any articles about Ben Folds recording the album "rockin' the suburbs". he recorded it at a fairly large church in australia, and as always his piano sounds amazing.

-cheers

 

[gianluca68]

If you have access to a place that rents microphones, you might be best off getting a matched pair of condensors (large or small), using the second instde the piano option. Set them up as an X/Y coincident pair to get the full rangs of strings in a stereo spread. You can pan to taste, narrow or wide, but you'll get a much wider frequency spectrum than you would with a single mic. As long as you're renting, get a third LDC to place outside the nearfield as described in the fist example and use that to help fill the sound.

HTH,

G.

Be aware of having a very large stereo image. A grand piano as large as all the scene is Too big... I have experienced this

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Be aware of having a very large stereo image. A grand piano as large as all the scene is Too big... I have experienced this

Agreed. A full hard pan on the piano - even if just recording a recital - usually doen't sound as good as one that's been panned tighter.

Then again, a full hard pan on any instrument usually sounds like crap unless your going for some kind of headbanger wall effect. Otherwise reserve the sides for ambience.

G.