Audio Interface for a Newbie - Be gentle!

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daveyboy909

New member
Hi guys,

Before I start I just want you to know that I have spent a fair amount of time researching this. I knew absolutely nothing about it a month ago. I have read through a lot of reviews and forums and I have gone through a lot of threads on here and on other sites too, but I thought I would make my own thread in the hope that someone can help with my specific needs!


What I already have
Yamaha MG166cx mixing desk (not the USB version)
Roland RD700sx digital piano
Roland DM 2100 speaker system
2 Yamaha MSR400 speakers
Sennheiser e835s microphone (I know dynamic mics aren't ideal for recording but I am prepared to go with it just now)
Adobe Audition

A dell xps M1330 laptop (2048MB 667MHz Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM [2x1024], Intel® Core™ 2 Duo Processor T7250 (2.00 GHz, 2 MB L2 cache, 800 MHz FSB))



What I will be Doing
I am not a computer expert - not anywhere near it. I just play my digital piano and write songs for my small band. The band consists of me, a drummer who also plays guitar and a bass player.

I will usually be using the audio interface to record myself playing my digital piano and vocals, sometimes at the same time and sometimes separately overdubbing the vocals. Other band members may also play at the same time or overdub their part. This is where my requirement for a very low latency piece of hardware comes in.

I would also like to be able to edit each track e.g. volume etc separately even if I have recorded them at the same time. According to the Audio Interface Wizard, this means I would need several analogue outputs. (Although this is not completely necessary)

My mixer could be used for the preamps and for submixing frums etc but I would prefer to just use the audio interface for portability reasons. I may not bother with drums on some recordings anyway.

What I want
I just want an audio interface that is NOT complicated to use. As far as possible, I would like it to be plug and play. As this is just a hobby, I would be prepared to sacrifice a little bit of sound quality for a piece of hardware that I would not have to spend hours on trying to figure out!

I don't really have a preference whether it is USB 1, USB 2 or firewire, although I am aware that firewire would likely give the best quality but at a higher price.

I have been very close to buying the Yamaha Audiogram 6 but I have decided to be patient and wait for advice. I have read as many forum threads and review on it as I can find with the usual mix of positive and negative comments. I was attracted to it because it is Yamaha and it seems fairly simple but it is only USB 1.1 which is odd for such a new audio interface and I have read about other issues e.g. with the drivers etc.

I would really like the software to be simple to use. I'm not bothered about really advanced features.


Budget
If I am just buying an audio interface, my budget would be around £200 (british pounds - around £330 USD i think). The Audiogram fits well within this budget.

If you suggest that I would need extra equipment then I would increase the budget by another £100 or so. As I say, this is just a hobby and I don't want to spend thousands of pounds.

In a nutshell I would like to buy an audio interface that has a few inputs for microphone, stereo input for my digital piano, hopefully with decent preamps, hopefully but not necessarily with a few analogue outputs, and with a decent sound quality:ease of use ratio. Because I will be overdubbing different parts, I would like it to have audio playback via headphones and there would have to be no latency or at least very little latency

USB 2 seems the way to go for better quality recording and lower latency but I wouldn't rule out a USB 1.1 card like the audiogram if the sound quality and ease of use would be good.

I know this has been a long post but I wanted to give as much details as possible. I hope someone can help with some recommended audio interfaces and please be gentle :)

Thanks

Dave
 
Whenever I see someone wants to do drums, my first thought is, even if doing a pretty minimalist drum recording I want 3 or 4 mics- like 1 or 2 overheads, a kick and a snare. For full on rock-band, 7-10 mics is more like it. For the sake of flexibility (and later adjust-ability) you ideally want each of those mics on a separate track. Can you record a drum set with one mic? yeah, but you'll have to find just the rights spot to put the mic so each drum is at the right level and its very difficult-to damn near impossible to get something that really sounds good.

If you wouldnt have mentioned drums, I'd say get a usb or firewire interface with 2 mic preamps and have fun. For anything with drums, I'd seriously consider an 8 channel firewire interface like the Presonus Firestudio or Firepod or whatever the $400 (usd) model is called these days. That'll give you plenty of interface and there's nothin to em as far as being complicated, but no matter what you pick you'll have to learn how to use a recording software. I like Reaper alot and its only $60 (and has fully functioning and unencumbered trial version).


Summary; for anything with drums, spend another 100 and get an 8 channel firewire interface. And, download a copy of Reaper. :)
 
The zoom h4n sounds like your best bet it does everything you can possibly imagine and it sounds great here is an example.
the h4n has mics in stereo xy and two extra inputs, when you run it in 4 channel mode it utilizes all for inputs at once, therefore. For Drums place the zoom as an overhead and mic the kick and snare. Track those drums straight to the zoom.

The zoom also doubles as a usb interface. so plug it in. load those hot drum trax in to the comp. And now you can track the rest of your song thrue the zoom to your current program. Or use Cubase 4le Which comes with the zoom!

Its so easy to use even my dad can do it.

ps im not a zoom advertiser its just works so well.
 
Well,
If you want to record multiple instruments at once and be able to edit them separately, then you need multiple analog inputs, not outputs.
Think of each input as an individual track you will later be able to edit separately.
So, if your keyboard has midi capabilities, you should look for an interface that supports a midi connection, which will free up those two analog inputs you were gonna use on that.
Then again, if you want plug and play and ease of use, and don't have any midi experience, you might wanna skip that.

So, say you want to record the stereo out from your keyboard, vocals, and a bass track all at once. You're gonna need at least four inputs on your interface.
USB1.1 just won't do this well, especially if you plan on going back and doing overdubs.

As far as latency issues are concerned, just look for an interface that has zero-latency monitoring. The way this works is, since you'll most likely be monitoring from the main outs on your interface, when you go to do an overdub, the computer sends the mix of everything you've recorded up to that point to the interface, which routes it to the main outs. At the same time, you are recording a track, which the interface sends to your DAW. Latency is introduced when the audio has to be converted from analog to digital, sent to the computer, sent back from the computer, then converted back from digital to audio. Zero latency monitoring allows you to add the audio that is being recorded to the stereo mix that is being sent to the main outs. That is, while the interface sends the recorded audio into the computer, it also sends it to your monitors, and you hear, as it's being played, exactly what's being recorded.

That was probably a bit longer than it needed to be.

Anyway, look for an interface with zero latency monitoring, and you'll never have to worry about latency issues.

That being said, the difference between USB and Firewire is that USB is a master/slave connection - the computer does all the processing and the USB interface passively follows it's directions. This can cause problems when your number of tracks and vst effects starts to get up there and you try to add another overdub.
Firewire on the other hand is a peer to peer relationship, with the firewire unit handling some of the processing and taking a lot of the burden off your computer while you are actually tracking.
On modern systems, you probably have more than enough RAM and processing power to be able to handle a USB 2 unit as long as you aren't trying to record more than 4 tracks at once.

Summarizing:
You wanna look for
1) as many analog inputs as individual tracks you want to record at a time, keeping in mind that each input equals one separate track you can edit later.
2) Zero latency monitoring, so you can rock the overdubs without having to worry about fiddling with buffer settings and all that crap.
3) Keep in mind that you can only record as many microphones as you can preamps. So, if you go with an interface that has 4 inputs, but only two preamps, you'll only be able to record 2 mics at a time. Then again, you said you could use the preamps on your mixer, so as long as you can figure out how to get the signal from mixer to interface, you're golden.

Something like this:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/356702-REG/PreSonus_FIREBOX_FireBox_Interface.html
is well within your price range and, assuming you don't think you'll want to record more than four analog inputs at once, fits your needs nicely. You might even have enough left over to go buy a decent condenser mic. But that's a different subject entirely.

Edit - I don't see it mentioned anywhere that the firebox allows zero latency monitoring, but I gotta assume it does, or at least offers something similar with the included software router.
 
Guys,

Thanks a lot for your replies they are really helpful.

Jeff D - I see what you're saying about the drums. I would definitely need more inputs for that. I'm still considering leaving drums as an afterthought just now though. I will certainly be looking into downloading Reaper as you're not the only one I've seen mentioning it, and I hear you use it for free until you feel guilty enough to pay for it!


The Chicken Master - That looks like a good piece of kit but why does it have built in microhpones? It says on their site that it will be good for drum overheads etc but I'm not sure if that's the main reason. You said something about an example, do you have a link? It would be cool if you did! Cheers for the tips.

TheCancers - I understood your explanation of zero latency monitoring which I thought was quite good for me! Looks like that's definitely what I'd be wanting. Would that also mean that there would be no problem with the recording of an overdub being slightly out of sync with something I had already recorded?

Also, my mixer has XLR monitor out, Phono monitor out, and RCA rec out so I'm sure that I could get a signal from it to the interface by one of these means. And I probably wouldn't be recording more than one or two mics at a time anyway (unless I am recording drums, which is likely to be some way down the line).

Couple of quick questions about the firebox - would it be able to recognise that the inputs from my digital piano are the L and R from one source? Or would it recognise it as two separate sources? For example on the Audiogram, one of the input channels has two inputs for the same channel (L and R) and so this would be recognise as a single stereo source as opposed to two mono sources. (Hope this makes sense!) Also, would I be able to connect the firebox to my laptop's mini firewire port, because it does not have a 'large' firewire port.

Thanks again!

Dave
 
about the two mono vs. one stereo thing, in Reaper, when you select your input for each track, you can select an individual mono track or a group of tracks - like it will group inputs 1 and 2 into a single stereo input.

Reaper is great. And yeah, the trial doesnt have an limitations. Its well worth the $60 though, for sure.

Edit, by the way, you can download it and install it now. It will recognize whatever soundcard or interface you happen to have on your computer- including your stock soundcard.
 
I own a firewire interface (Presonus Inspire) and an older USB 1.1 interface (Boss GS-10). I use the Boss 100% of the time as it has so many features I don't need any Amp Sims, Impulse Responses, etc.

THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN QUALITY in firewire or USB - the difference is throughput. If all you're recording is 1 or 2 tracks at one time then USB will work fine and it'll be less expensive. I record a track, then another, then another, etc and "layer" or "overdub". If you're going to need multiple tracks at one time then firewire is best. But quality wise I see no difference between my firewire or my USB interfaces. The more expensive they are - the better the preamps, converters, etc. But my Boss GS-10 sounds simply amazing and it's 5 years old and, as I said, USB 1.1 - and I have zero issues with it!
 
Strangedogs is right, there is no difference in quality between USB and Firewire. The quality differences, as he mentioned, will be in the mic preamps and the Audio to digital converters.
However, many USB 1 interfaces only record at 44.1K sample rates.
While track to track you probably won't be able to tell the difference between 44.1k and 96k, in a whole mix of, say 10 tracks, it becomes more apparent that you are recording at a lower sample rate.
I'm not saying don't go with a usb interface, but that firebox, for example, is pretty darn cheap, and is gonna give you better quality songs in the long run, IMHO.
DAVEYBOY:
question 1) No, each input on the firebox is a mono input. If your keyboard has a single physical output that sends a stereo signal, and you want to record both channels, all you'd need is something like this:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CMP159/
Something that has a TRS jack on one end and splits that into two TS jacks.
Question 2) Yes, you could run the firebox to your laptop. The extra two pins on a six pin connection are to power the firebox from the computer. You can get a six pin to four pin cable. The only issue is that you'll have to run the firebox power from the ac adapter. Not a huge issue.
 
daveyboy909 said:
The Chicken Master - That looks like a good piece of kit but why does it have built in microhpones? It says on their site that it will be good for drum overheads etc but I'm not sure if that's the main reason. You said something about an example, do you have a link? It would be cool if you did! Cheers for the tips.

Dave
Click to expand...

there is no main reason for a given mic. Its really meant as handheld unit therefore it has mics. And i was telling you an example of what you can do.
 
TheChikenMaster said:
"The zoom h4n sounds like your best bet it does everything you can possibly imagine and it sounds great"
Click to expand...

I agree. A unit like this would be exactly what he needs.
Simple, portable, relatively inexpensive, multi-function, good quality, can dump files on you computer program & edit if you want, 4 channels...

It has "daveyboy909" written all over it!
 
Guys,

I really appreciate all the help! I'm actually fairly taken aback with the help I'm gettin so thanks a lot.

TheCancers - I should have said, my digital piano has both a Left and a Right output which can either be XLR or Jacks. So there would be two cables coming out of it requiring two separate inputs on the interface.

We were talking about zero latency monitoring, if there was zero latency monitoring with the firebox, would that also mean that there would be no problem with with tracks being slightly out of sync if i was oberdubbing/layering tracks? E.g. I might be hearing the new input as being in sync with a pre-recorded track because I am using zero latency monitoring, but by the time the signals are converted etc and it gets to my cmoputer, would the newly recorded track be slightly out of snyc with the pre-recorded track? I hope that makes sense!

TheChickenMaster - that's a really cool song and if you did all that with the zoom then it must be good.

I've been reading up on the H4N and watcing some youtube videos about it and it looks like an excellent piece of kit. However I have a couple of concerns with it:

1) The price - It is retailing over here for around £300 which is about £100 over the budget I had in mind, however I may be tempted to fork out the extra 100.

2) I think part of the cost of that unit is because of the built in quality microphones, which I don't actually see myself using. If this unit simply had 4 xlr/jack inputs for mics and instruments then I think I'd go for it. Part of the price will also probably be because it allows editing on the actual unit itself, but I am quite happy to do this on my laptop.

3) Monitoring and overdubbing/layering - if i recorded my digital piano's L and R using the two inputs and I then wanted to record vocals and then guitar, does it allow for playback of the already recorded track and zero latency monitoring of the new track at the same time?

Strangedogs - Have you had a look at the Yamaha Audiogram? My attraction to it is how simple it appears to be. This is USB 1.1 like your Boss. Here is a picture of the interface - http://www.woodbrass.com/images/woodbrass/YAMAHA+AUDIOGRAM+6.JPG

The audiogram has a jack for phones, so I'm assuming (hoping) that this means there is zero latency monitoring. There is also L and R input on one channel which would be ideal for my digital piano, and it offers compression on the two mic channels. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Thanks again guys, I really apreciate it!! :)

Dave
 
dont worry you will definatly use the mics. The zoom comes with cubase 4le which is so amazing to use. I did the drums in 4 channel mode. then loaded them onto cubase. Everything else was overdubbed and monitored through the zoom. The more i used it the more i fell in love with it.

PS there is no c in the chikenmaster
 
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I was skeptical that the Zoom unit above would make a good interface for home recording. Those handhelds are very cool for field recording stuff, but when I mic a guitar or whatever, I want to be able to put my mics where I want them... so, I'd be using the input jacks w/ separate mics. The H4N looks like it goes for about $300. After reading up on it, it looks like a pretty capable unit (a lot more so than I expected)

BUT, if you don't plan on doing field recording, then I'd get something like the Presonus Firebox and take the $100 I saved and buy a decent pair of mics. A pair of these would probably get you off to a good start http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/CAD-CM217-Condenser-Mic-Buy-One-Get-One-FREE?sku=271324. If you stick with this, I think you find yourself wanting different mic options anyway whether you get the Zoom, the Firebox or something else.

My approach to buying stuff (cause I'm a tightass :p) is to only pay for the features I actually NEED and not pay for options that are nice, but wont get used (perfect example- onboard effects in a guitar amp). So, if you arent going out and recording shows then I'd stick with a separate interface and mics.
 
Options

Here are a few options (some not in your price range)

I'd be afraid of quality control with this unit
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.co...Track-II-Portable-Digital-Recorder?sku=241715

M-Audio has always been good quality for me
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.co...Track-II-Portable-Digital-Recorder?sku=241715

This is an interesting new product (out of reach)
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Cakewalk-SONAR-VStudio-100?sku=620483

Minimal, but would work...
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.co...4track-Digital-Multitrack-Recorder?sku=250011

$50 bucks more and you could have this...
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Fostex-MR8-mkII-8Track-Digital-Recorder?sku=240343#used

It all depends on your needs, your budget...and the desired result.
Are you gonna send the recordings to London to have a guy master them @ $1500 per hour?
Or are you just gonna post it on the internet to impress friends? :cool:
 
No,
You wouldn't have any problems with tracks not synching up. I know exactly what you're talking about, as I had exactly these problems with my first interface when I started trying to record my band. Id get up to about the 10'th overdub with a bunch of effects on everything - we weren't even monitoring our incoming signal because it was dragging so much - and when we got what felt like a good take, i'd listen back, only to find everything was out of synch. If you're setup is capable of giving you a good live monitoring sound, you won't have any of those problems.

Now, as to the external portable units people have been mentioning.
They are neat. And definitely handy. However, as JEFF_D said, unless you plan on doing field recording, just get an interface.
I've gone the route of using a separate unit to record, then dragging the files onto your computer. It's tedious, and doesn't have the feel of recording (especially during the overdubbing phase) directly to your hard drive.
Plus, how do you check the sound you're getting when your recording device is also your mic? Something I've found, especially with drums, is that I can get a much better sound with just a few mics than with trying to mic every drum. However, I have to be able to hear all those mics together, out of the room with the drums, to be able to ensure that good sound. I run a snake from my control room (bedroom) to my tracking room (living room), and do a lot of running back and forth and fine tuning of mic placement.
I don't see how placing the hand held unit's mics would be anything but guesswork.

Then again, I've never used one of the hand held units, so I don't really know what they're capable of. I don't think, however, that I've seen one that actually acts as an interface, so if anyne knows of one, point it out to me.
 
oh yeah, AND that Firebox actually has 4 analog inputs- the 2 preamps on the front AND 2 more line ins on the back- SO, you could connect your digital piano to inputs 3&4 to record in stereo and still have the 2 mic inputs on the front for a guitar or something....

AND ,you could get another stereo preamp like the AudioBuddy http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/MAudio-Audio-Buddy-2-Channel-Preamp?sku=701104 and connect that to the line ins on the back and have 4 mic channels, which you could probably pull off doing drums with.

AND, the Firebox does MIDI, so you could hook your digital piano up thru MIDI instead of an analog channel (or do both).

I wouldn't bother with the field recorders (even though that H4N looks like it functions as an interface) and I definitely wouldn't bother with any of those stand alone recorders. You're going to end up editing on the computer anyway. Why create the extra steps for transferring from the stand alone to the computer?
 
Guys,

Thanks again for the adivce, i'm well on my way to making an informed choice.

TheChikenMaster - sorry about the 'c' :p it must have been "the coup" that threw me! The Zoom looks brilliant but I think it is slightly out of my price range which is unfortunate. Things seem to retail over here for substantially more than the direct exchange rate for some reason.

Jeff_D - I think you're right - I won't be doing any field recording so I will probably go for just an interface and do any editing on the computer. So for this reason the Firebox was looking like a great option UNTIL i read a number of views that talked about problems with its compatability with Vista! Which is what I'm running! Mac users seem to have been able to pretty much plug and play, but Vista users seem to have had numerous problems :(

Thanks also for the info on the Firebox, I had been wondering if it would have been OK to use the inputs on the back for my digital piano as opposed to the L and R inputs on the front.

I also have the Yamaha MG166cx mixer so I could use this as a submixer to the firebox to allow for recording drums, albeit it would mean that all the drum parts e.g. snare, kick etc would go into one single track on the DAW for editing. But as I say, drums aren't a big concern of mine right now.

Clark Grizwald - I had a look at all of those units and the M audio seemed the most suitable in terms of price and function. However there seemed to be a lot of people moaning about the noise it generates in recorded tracks.

And out of your two options of the $1500 an hour vs posting on the internet to impress friends :-)p) I think I would have to go with the latter if it's a choice between the two!

TheCancers - I was on the PreSonus site and read the specs (not that they meant a great deal to me...) and features of the firebox and it mentioined Low latency monitoring as opposed to zero latency monitorng. I suppose this begs the question as to how low is low?

The only thing that still concerns me about the Firebox is the apparent compatability issues with Vista. If it was as simple as it appears to be for Mac, I think I would buy it right now.

I may have to simply concede that there isn't going to be a perfect interface that is extremely simple and "plug and play" and just accept that I will need to go for the next best thing - which may well be the Firebox. What do you think?

Again, thanks a lot for all the help :)

Dave
 
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