Advice for newbie mixing band at bar

S

sindawg

New member
Ok first off, I have general knowledge about mixing. I had worked in radio for 9 years now which gave me basic knowledge of a soundboard but as some of you may know, when you're in radio, pretty much the board is set & you don't touch anything except a couple buttons.

My partners band lost their drummer who knew how to set up their mixer for their live shows so they asked me to help them hook it up. Simple enough. I ended up running the board the entire show. Usually they got it set up, levels ok and walked away. Since I was there, I thought I'd baby sit it and adjust as the show went on. They appearantly got a lot of good response on the sound so I've been doing it since. Also because we can ad some light echo onto the whistles on a couple songs which make an awesome sound.

The band plays Celtic music and some covers. 2 guitarists, a tin whistle, a djembe, a piano/keyboard and a fiddler. 3 or 4 of the band members also sing. Mic'ing and wiring everything isn't a problem. (Although I've been learning better ways to mic the djembe then just putting a mic at the base of it.)

We've been using the bar's mixer up to know but I went out and bought a Behringer UB2222 today. Basically same board they had at the bar. I wanted something I could have with me and learn how to use to its potential rather then just a mixer I saw once a month.

The first show, I mixed by ear from the sound of the speakers. Not the best placement of the sound board but I made due. The second show, I brought my headphones in thinking I could do a better job listening that way but found that the sound was differant coming through the headphones then the speakers. So I ditched the headphones and completed the last 3 hours by the speakers.

Now to the meat of this post (sorry, just wanted to give you some background):

Do you guys have any advice you've learned over the years mixing for live bands in small bars that might be helpful? Again, I'm not ashamed to say I am new and what might seem obvious, I may not know and would much rather hear it.

I get the fact that a lot of it is just personal judgement about how it sounds. Like adjusting the highs, mids & lows (do you guys typically just keep them in the middle unless something sounds really tinty or bassey?)

Also, the EQ, should I just leave it alone, pretty muh mid-way all the way across, or is there some sort of "typical" set up that people have found the sound better?

I know it'll take some playing with the board and just "real world" experience but I figured if there are any BASICS you guys could throw at me, it would be much appreciated.

Thanks!
 
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Pay just as much attention to the monitors as you do everything else.

Also, getting everyone in the bar bombed is a great way to make sure they don't notice the sound.
 
The problem I have (and probably always will) with recording live in a bar is the room is never very good. Close mic'ing helps minimize it but there's little you can do for OH drum mics and the PA mics if you take a feed from the PA. I find myself cutting a good bit of low freqs from those.

How many tracks do you plan to record?
 
If people have been complimenting you on your live mixing sound, then you don't have a lot to worry about.

Don't bother with headphones. They are (sometimes) useful for checking your solos and stuff, but I would concentrate on what you are hearing through FOH. That is, after all, what the punters are listening to, and so should you be.

With any modifications, do the minimum. Start with things flat, and adjust only where necessary. When you start messing around, you can inadvertently find yourself in a compensating spiral ("i've adjusted this, now I have to adjust that, and now I have to adjust something else" . . . and on it goes).

If the room responds favourably to reverb and delay, then use it (as you have done). I think you worked out that the whistles get a life when using it on these.

You sound like you are coping well. Battle on!
 
Yeah, ditch the headphones for sure. Go to any concert and have a look at the guy at the FOH position- do you see them wearing headphones for the whole gig? Hell no... (although, as mentioned above, they are useful for PFL. I also use them to audition any effects I'm about to turn on, to make sure that I don't do something stupid).

Admitedly, in a bar you're not likely to have the desk at the best FOH position. You can find yourself on stage, in front of a single speaker stack, in a booth up the back of the room... However, you can only mix for where you are. Also, you can't adjust the ambient noise, nor can you adjust the noise from stage. One of the main problems you'll have in the pub situation is guitarists who love to crank up the amp- this ends up being as loud (or louder) than the actual PA, meaning you really have to strain to get the vocals out. But, you do what you have to do.

I'd advise getting an EQ and putting it in line with the outputs. If everything sounds boomy, then roll off some bass. If only one instrument/vox is sounding boomy, then roll down the bass on the channel... you get my drift. As for "generic" settings... there's not many. Bass guitar/kick drums/lo-end piano/harp... yeah, you might want to wind in a bit of extra bass, but other wise it's best to start flat-ish and then work towards the sound ou're looking for.

The main problem I find with pubs is that bodies tend to soak up all sorts of weird frequencies, so you'll always hear a big difference between your sound check and the show. For that reason, I usually use the soundcheck to set the stage monitors (if you're using them) and to get only a rough idea of the house sound. If you've got that in-line EQ mentioned above, then when the masses roll through the door, you'll be able to make a quick tweek to adjust for their absorbance.

Balance between speakers is usually an issue- you'll find the room will probably either have no subs, or will try and drown everybody with bass. Also, the acoustics in many of the rooms you'll work are shameful. You may need to adjust for that (once again, EQ). Best way to do that is to take a CD you're really familiar with and listen to it through the system. Test and adjust until you hear the track like it's meant to be played.

Make sure that everyone is miced, regardless of how little they think they need it. It makes your life a whole lot easier if you have control over everything. The second you leave the volume in control of a performer is the second you screw up your mix. An OH and kick mic are also worthwhile, even in a small room where the drums are making a lot of racket. Drummers play to volume, so if they're hearing themselves through the PA/monitor rig, you'll find that most of them will hit the skins a little lighter, and you'll get a better sound. Plus, a kick through the monitors always helps with that little "tempo" thing.

ah... what else...

well, if you're going to be staying in the one room for a while, then it might be worthwhile picking up a cheap 8-track (like an ADAT Blackface). During a gig, record the direct outputs of the 8 most important channels. Then, in your free time (if the bar allows you to), take the outputs of the 8-track, and feed them back into the desk as if they were your stage channels. You can then re-create the gig, and "reherse," if you will (I use this technique with a couple of my juniors, and it tends to work). This way you can also experiment with your reverbs/delays/comps in a show environment, but without screwing up a show.

Finally, relax. The sound desk is an instrument too (If you don't believe me, check out http://www.infusion.net.au/infusion/images/bio3.jpg - Jamie "plays" a mackie on stage).

So yeah, hope that helps.
If not, PM me with more specific questions.
 
have mixer . . . will travel: now that you have your own desk, you may find yourself doing different venues, as opposed to sitting in the one spot each night. You mentioned that you were getting compliments on the sound, so, assuming that those compliments were not coming from people totally plastered, you must be doing ok (as I said in an earlier post), and the room must behaving itself acoustically.

All that Jamie has said makes sense. A vital ingredient is a graphic across the desk output so that you have some control over the room resonance.

I believe that the band you mix is mainly acoustic, so mostly they will all be miked. In anycase, I always like to have mikes available in case someone's lead packs it in or a preamp battery goes flat or whatever.

One of things I find exasperating is a band who wants the foldback so loud you hardly need FOH. But . . . audio coming back from foldback is so sludgy you need FOH for clarity, and so you find yourself putting FOH much louder than you would like or the venue needs.

I used to set foldback settings first and get the band comfortable with the sound, then bring FOH up . . . but that doesn't always work. Instead I go the reverse; balancing FOH, then bringing up foldback until the band is comfortable. That way they are getting a composite mix from the start.

Recording your mixes off the desk for your and the band's benefit is a good idea. It works best if you are doing sound 'replacement' rather than sound 'reinforcement'. With the latter, the recorded mix will only store what you need to add to the sound provided on stage to get a balanced mix, and may miss out on fully representing the whole sound. This can disappoint some artists who often expect something quite different.
 
Wow, a ton of great info. Thank you ALL for your input. I wont lie when I say that some of it went over my head but, it's all experience and it'll make sense soon I'm sure.

Like I said at the begining, I'm a radio DJ who go flung into this sound engingeering only because I've stood infront of a sound board before so, my knowledge is vastly differant from that of you guys so your "simplifying" it for me has been amazingly helpful.

The issue we ran into this last Sunday was... here I show up with my shiney, happy new Behringer UB 2222 ready to hook up to the house speaker and... (dum dum duuuuuuuum!) the speakers mounted to the ceiling use Speakon cables. My board has XLR and 1/4" outputs only. ::sigh:: So we had to use the house mixer anyways but thats fine. It taught me a lesson. You need adapters, connectors, cords and cables damn it! So I've researched and found adapters to switch the Speakon to 1/4" and then a 1/4" to XLR. This doesn't sound like it should be an issue should it?

The other worry I had was, I noticed their board is a Behringer PMH3000 Europower Powered Mixer. With the following features " Super-compact 2x400W (800W bridged mode) stereo powered mixer -
Revolutionary and patented CoolAudio Amplifier Technology" My UB 2222 doesn't have that. :< Now, again this may be such a newbie question but, am I going to need an amp to get the same performance out of my board as theirs? Or should I just be able to plug their speakers (into the adapters) then into my board and have the same sound?

Sunday the show went very well. The problem the band had was that they couldn't hear themselves because they have no monitors. I think thats one thing I'm going to suggest the band as a whole invest in, even if they are little ones. But, like I kept telling them, "You guys sound great. You worry about playing, I'll worry about how loud you are."

And I have definatly thought about recording them through the board mostly so that they can hear what the audience is hearing. I think it would be great for them to be able to sit back and hear a clean recording of their performance the next day just as if they were a member of the audience. Thats one reason my Program Director at the radio station makes us record our shows and sit with her and play them back once a month. Its amazing how differant you sound when you are the audience and NOT the performer. :)

Again, you all have been amazingly helpful. I'm sure there will be many more questions to come and I'll try and give you updates on how the shows progress (and the sound). THANK YOU for taking the time to hold a newbies hand and help me take my baby-steps. :)
 
perhaps someone with greater knowledge of those boards can provide a more definitive answer. The house system is a powered mixer. Your desk is not (I don't think), and you would need a power amp between desk and speakers.

All is not lost: you can still use your board and the house system simply by taking the main outs of yours and plugging these into a couple of channels on the house board. Set these to unity, and just drive the whole thing from yours. Don't worry about messing with adaptors and stuff . . . that is a level of complication that is better done without.

The issue of no monitors for the band is a concern. It is all very well saying "You guys sound great. You worry about playing, I'll worry about how loud you are", but they will find it hard to play great if they can't hear themselves; specially if there is a mixture of acoustic instruments and electronic keyboards.

Once they can hear themselves properly, the quality of performance will improve amazingly. Either they, you, or the house needs to get a foldback system. Small ones can work (I have seen people use little 'hotspots'), but they can prove to be as bad as no foldback if they don't give clarity.
 
Gecko is right- you will need an amplifier to use your board in that situation.
If you connect the outputs of your board straight to the speakers, you won't hear a thing. The difference is that the house board has an amp built into is, whereas yours doesn't.
One way around this is to take the outputs of your board and plug them into a stereo input of the house board. However, since they are similar decks, there's really no point to that.
The other option is to buy your own power amp. This is my preffered option- powered mixers (ie ones with amps in them) shit me to tears... but that's another story.

The recording should be fine if all you want to do is listen to it, however if you're planning on making a demo (or something like that), then you're better off recording the individual tracks and doing a seperate mix later. Mixing for FOH and mixing for a CD are two different beasts.

As for monitoring... well, it's pretty important. There's nothing worse than not being able to hear your voice when you're trying to sing, or the vital cues from the music that let you know what you're supposed to sing/play. It might be worthwhile investing in a small powered speaker, like the JBL Eon 10, just for monitoring. They're fairly portable, and take an XLR in. Just send an Aux mix back down the multicore (or just run another line if you're running singles) and whack it into the Eon, and you've got a nice little wedge.
However, monitoring isn't always going to solve your problems, and, as the engineer, you're going to triple your workload (as well as triple the number of time you'll have the performers yelling at you). A good monitor mix is a big effort. Not only do you have to keep the performers happy, but you've not got a speaker pointing straight at your mics. I strongly reccommend that, if you do start using a monitor, that you invest in a seperate EQ (even jsut a single channel) to insert/inline with your monitor mix.

Once again, PM me for more details, or if you need further explaination on anything.
 
I agree with you. The fact that they don't have any monitors is a huge concern.

It wasn't so much 6 months ago when there were less instruments. Back then it was a single acoustic guitar, the GOOD djembe player, tin whistles and maybe a harmonica now and then. Everyone was fine & could hear themselves. But now that there are so many more instruments.. I agree, it is something they need.

And you totally answered my question about the board. That is what I was concerned about. I'm actually thinking what I may do is return the board & pick up the powered one like the bar has. Its only a couple hundred more I believe. That way I just wouldn't have to worry about this in the future.

** Edit ** And now after reading Cpl Crud's post, I'll look into an amp before I make any returns. hehe

I'll check out those Eon's as well.
 
One of the good things about separate mixers and amps is that, if one of them packs it in, there is less to replace. And it's been my experience that the amp section is the most likely to go. Power amps are easy to replace and can often be borrowed in a pinch. If a channel goes out on your mixer, you can frequently work around it and still do the gig. If the amp section on a powered mixer goes tits-up, you are usually screwed unless you have a direct out and can scrounge a power amp.
 
Keep your mixer. You can use it off the job for doing recordings and stuff with. Instead, have a look at power amps (as you said you would). As Irishfolker says, having components gives you a greater degree of flexibility. It also makes upgrading easier.

Having said that, I have gone down the mixer and powered speaker path. Think about this if you are considering doing more live mixing work. Costs are roughly comparable, i.e. cost of power amp plus two speakers = cost of two powered speakers. I do this because:
a) the whole set up is simpler
b) active speaker technology has come a long way

And now, changing my mind again, if you get a power amp, you can use it in either of two roles:
1 as an amp to provide a stereo FOH mix; or
2 using one channel to provide a mono FOH mix and the other to provide a mono foldback mix
 
Gecko:

Thanks for those options. Definatly something to keep in my mind.

After spending all day at work looking at differant amps (yeah, I should have been doing something work related but, damn it, this has become engrossing learning all of this) that are in my price range and which I think will do the job, I *think* I've decided.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product?sku=481218

For those of you who don't wanna click, its a Gem Sound XP-550 Stereo Power Amp w/ 1000W per channel @ 4 ohms mono-bridged for $149.99.

Reasons I *think* I've chosen this one (barring someone on here screaming and waving there hands saying "NOOOOO!") is:

1.) The price - I really can't spend over $200

2.) The current mixer the bar has that we've been using has 800W bridged so I'm confident this will exceed what we'll need it for NOW but will give us some extra in the future if needed.

3.) a. Everywhere the band plays already has a house set up. Mixer and speakers, cables. Just no monitors yet (grumble) So at THIS moment, I don't need to worry about bringing our own speakers. I just need to be able to hook up to what they already have available. And the only reason I even BOUGHT a mixer was so that I could learn it better by having with me all the time as opposed to only seeing it once a month when their gig was. When they were hired to perform at a private party and some ritzy house, they all played acoustic (this was prior to the keyboardist & fiddler). So they didn't really need a sound system.

b. The band is trying to get into the Folk Life Festivel here in Seattle as well as the Highland Games Festivel and several others. In most of these festivels, please correct me if I'm wrong, when there are quite a few other acts performing, don't they tend to have one main soundboard set up that all acts use? I can't imagine a festivel with 10 bands in a day and the sound crew breaking down all of their gear to make room for the next.

Also, a lot of these performers when they play bars by themselves, they tend to work the sound board themselves from up on stage. Again, most of it is acoustic type instruments. I think in this genre, and especially at this "level", its kind of odd to actually have someone working sound for them.

Quite frankily, until their band mate who knew how to hook up the board moved, all they did was hook everything up, make a few adjustments during the show and thats it. If something was hot during one of the songs, one of them would pop off the corner of the stage at the end of the song, pull the fader down a bit and hop back up and hope they didn't pull it down too far.

When they asked me to hook up the board, I decided to just babysit it during the show (cause it gave me something to do finally) and the next thing I know, they are wanting me to run the board for them everyshow. And then the next thing I know after that is I'm looking for sound boards and logging onto here and picking all of your guys' brains like I'm cramming for a test. HAHA!

And even NOW... I'm scurring around looking for a power amp and spending all day comparing models and researching what this does and what that does and thinking "Why are there so many f'ing differant types of cables!" and second guessing myself whether what I'm looking at will work with what I bought.

You know, all this is REALLY engulfing me much more then I thought it was going to. And I really do love it. :) hehe

Ok, sorry for the long post. Just seems like everyday I find out more and more wonderful knowledge about all of this and I like sharing what I've found out. (Fingers! Stop typing!)
 
1 festivals: most festivals supply a PA and engineer at the venue. When you apply to play (and are accepted), they usually ask you to supply info on number of mikes, DIs and a stage layout for the band.

2 set and forget: this, too, is very common. The band gets to a job, sets up its own PA, and then (generally) leaves it as it is (except when, as you say, someone pops down to adjust something. When playing (curiously, also in a traditional music band), that job fell to me, eventually to the extent that I stayed permanently on the mixer.
 
BadAE: Thank you! I shall read over that entire site. Thats great!

Gecko: Ok, thats what I figured about the festivels. I think its just "icing on the cake" that this band has someone to do this for them. As they continue along, I'll end up picking up experience and growing with them.
 
Just one quick one on the festivals: as much as it may pain you, you should abstain from driving the FOH desk.
Firstly, if the festival provides an engineer, chances are they're fairly experience, and will also know the system quite well. If there's a monitor deck, then you should probably stick yourself there- chances are if anyone knows the "secret hand signals" of your band, it will be you (there's nothing more frustrating than standing behind a big, impressive deck and having some rock star wave his hands at you, and all you can do is shrug your shoulders and give them a bit more vocal...). Also, at most well-funded/sponsored festivals, monitor land is where the free drinks are kept.

If there's not monitor deck, see if you can sit yourself at FOH, just to observe. You'll get the chance to listen to a mix of your band without the stress of mixing, plus you may pick up a few hints and/or tips.
 
So, I know WHY not to use 1/4" instrument cables for plug into speakers. I've learned that. But just from looking online, they look exactly the same. To avoid making this mistake when you are faced with a pile of 1/4" cables, is there any VISUAL clues that would distinguish a 1/4" instrument from a 1/4" speaker cable?

One of the band members who owns all the cables just keeps them all in a plastic tube so when I open it I sometimes cry a little bit. I'm assuming all the cables he has are instrument cables, which is ok because the bar already has their speakers wired.

But, just for MY knowledge, other then seeing it on a shiny little package when I buy one new, if there was some differance no one has mentioned.
 
The visual clues are few. Sometimes you have to unscrew the jack to see the type of cable used. I am ok, because all my 1/4 speaker cables are grey.

However, this problem is going to go away by itself. For quite some years, XLR connectors have been the predominant speaker connection, and you can easily tell them because both ends are the same.

More recently, Speakon connections are now typical in the industry.

It seems to me that at the moment you are teetering on a balance: whether to dive headfirst into this whole mixing business, or whether to be a fringe dweller.

If you take a plunge in the first direction (which, by doing the work, getting a mixer and examining power amps, you seem to be doing), then you should embark on a deliberate program of getting your own gear together (which includes leads, mikes, multicores and all those peripherals). Doing this allows you to manage your own gear properly, rather than rely on the offcasts of others.
 
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