Square One - New mixes... testing out the pre to puter combo

jimmychalk

New member
Hey we recorded this song about a month or two ago, butI'm just finishing mixing

I'd like to hear your thoughts on it...

http://www.jimmychalk.com click on the picture,
go to "square one acoustic intro" and "square one band intro" to check em out, thanks ~jim
 
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Jimmy,

I remember this tune from before when you posted an earlier mix of it but, I can't remember what the first mix was like to compare the two.

This one sounds very solid and clear.

There is some extreme panning in this where instruments are solely placed to one side and this is a little disconcerting as a listener, thinking that something is wrong with my stereo and then other sounds kick in and everything sounds good. It's a personal snit on my part and not a big deal either way.

The song is a good one!

All the parts seem very well played and the mix has all the signs of a professionals touch.

I like!

Cheers! :)
 
I like the micing technique you used on the guitar, the mechanical noises of the pick/strings/etc.. are not heard, yet the tones of the guitar come out really good. The guitar is a bit hard right in the intro and could start in and then pan out for the separation your after. The toms and snare are a bit hot in a couple of places however, its really smooth. Very good performance and tracking on the vocal too.
 
thanks guys for the comments, it's mondo late here, but I thought i'd talk about the techniques, etc real fast. We recorded everything in trey's house in their theater (soundproofed... good room!) we ran a live snake (is that normal?) from that room to the roland 2480. All the overdubs went thru the manley voxbox, including vox, bass, acous.

Gear - Roland VS2480
Manley Voxbox
Shure KSM27s for vox, acous, long range mic on elec, and overheads
Drums: DW kit, d112 on the kick (?) toms/snare: 57
Elec: American Strat, 2nd position (n/m single coil pickup) into a mesa boogie road king head to a mesa 412 cab
Acous: Gibson (ahh don't remember the model)
Bass: Fender American J

Mixing: SONAR 2.2, waves plug-ins

I just did the bass today as the bass recorded at the sessions was lacking in the ever-important area of tone... as someone pointed out on the last mix

in response to y'all's comments so far, the panning at the beginning... yah it's a little rough, I think a possible solution would be to record a second acous guitar part and pan them opposite (not hard pan, just seperate enough to distinguish)
... otherwise I could pan it to the center, but we get some balance probs in certain freqs, (just doesn't sound pro...)

Drums: yahhhhh I didn't do any volume adjusting on individual parts. I bussed them (correct term there?) to a reverb and compressor and tried to balance the original output and the bus output appropriately.

Anyway to tell y'all about us, Paul ferrer (19), a freshman at A and M wrote this song, sang, and played acoustic. Jonny Hawkins (16) played drums and arranged the tune. He also plays for nothing more @ www.nothingmore.net . Trey Dawson (18) owns most of the tracking gear and he did an amazing job engingeering. I'm 16, and produced/mixed and played elec and bass on this song. I hope ya like it and y'all please let me know what could be improved.
 
WOW!!!!

This is a truly great song....I mean this is a really, really good
song. I'm diggin the words and the music and the mix.
The acoustic version is the way to go....the other one almost seems if there's a timing (coordinating) issue with the offbeats.

If this showed up on MTV you'd have a million bucks and screaming girls crawling all over you....after that you would know what to do and say....and your hands wouldn't be in your
pockets anymore......not that your looking for that....you might like your hands there.

OUTSTANDING

DustyJack
 
OK... fixed a bit!

Thanks again for your comments...

http://www.jimmychalk.com ("Acoustic Intro..." and "Hopefully...")

I just put up another mix which sounds close to finished to me, and it addressed some of y'all's comments.

Ghost de FM - I moved the acoustic to about 14% right during it's solo parts and about 30% R for full band stuff... and I like ALOT better that way... THANKS!

Also.. I ran the final mix thru the L2 mastering plug-in (basically just a limiter) and took out the hiss at the beginning as well as faded out the end. I hope y'all like it!

Something everyone around here has been arguing about is the choice of snare, jonny used his piccolo and some people want a little lower sound, what do y'all think?
 
Not a bad mix at all. The cymbals seemed a bit brittle to me but that could be the mp3. The snare sound was fine to my ears, I dig a piccolo snare.

My only complaints would be the singing style is too darn breathy for my taste. Also the whole song seemed to cut and paste popular styles together rather than go for an original sound. Though some say originality is overrated....
 
JimmyChalk :

I really think you are getting lucky with this thread, and things are going along in this thread in kind of an ideal way.

You have posted the MP3 as an acoustic mix, and then as a fuller band mix ...

And we get to study the growth of the mix and the song through that.

Then ... you remix the more final product of the two based on feedback from the clinic, the fuller band mix.

Awesome DODE !

I'm DL'ing now , can't wait to listen and read the thread ...

and learn, thanks much.
 
This works for me

Some very nice teamwork here - and there's a lot of commercial potential to this tune. Your reprise on the acoustic theme really knocked me out. I'd come out and hear this band for sure - I might even pay a cover charge to hear ya! I have nothing to gripe about (I'm hearing the new mix) - there seems to be a little bit o' mud in the bottom end but a.) I'm on headphones 'cause it's really late and b.) I've been listening to a mix of two mandolins all freeking day and I think my ears are toast!! For the record I don't care for piccolo snares but that's just me - I don't care for many drummists, either. But your drummer plays a fine kit, man - tasty.
Coooooooool tune there, folks!!
~Milan
 
hey, I noticed the "Mud" you talk about (milan) in the song in my car today.. so we'll see what the deal is with that.

studioviols... I'm glad yer happy with the thread haha, what do you think of the SONG?!
 
SquareOne1004.mp3 (monitoring with a mid-level consumer grade jambox, flat EQ)
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Intro is clean and well-balanced.

Initial vocal entrance is clean and unchallenged, lyrics easily understandable.
First verse continues to be a good mix, simple and fresh.


0:34, first chorus.


around 00:41 the singer takes two preparatory breaths to enter into the next section of this first chorus.
artistically, it is a nice statement, and that is unique to leave them in there.

I think the coming 'true chorus' will be MORE of a effective, if we hear more silence there.

I would reduce those two preparatory breaths to nearly nothing, or cut them altogether as long as that does not promote a 'dead spot' at that section.

At 00:45, the instruments that join in the mix at that point cause a large cumulative increase in overall apparent volume of the instruments.

Consider a side-chain approach here. Run all the instruments to their own bus and put compression on that bus.

Let the vocal live in it's own submix bus. Compare meters of the two busses here.

I know when I put my headphones on, I will be hearing everything that is really going on in this mix, and the vocal is going to be challenged at this point, and the vocal should be flying at it's highest peak at this point in the mix.

The first presentation of the chorus and the hooks in this genre with a singer this good, need to be sweet and clean and the vox needs to be way out front, unquestionable out front, later you can do more in the choruses.

So, you have eaten up all the headroom for the vocal as you enter this point in the mix and this limits your flexibility later as the mix continues to develop.

Lower all the instruments by 2db at 00:45, and approach with fresh ears. The instruments do NOT need to be louder here, what you may be reaching for is a thicker texture instead, not necessarily 'louder instruments'.

The power of a texture, it's weight and thickness do not require the boosting of the volume. The instruments themselves, rock and roll instruments, are themselves designed to add weight and thickness to a mix ... no matter what volume they are.

The singer is awesome, don't ever challenge his vocal, not for a split-second, because the girls, who buy the CD, will NOT like that.

You might here them say 'yeah, its a great band but we couldn't hear the cute boy singing' ... and that affects CD sales dramatically. It's reality, live with it ok ... :D

At 1:09, look at the meters ... are the instruments, any one of the instruments peaking above the vocals consistently ? Think about the cumulative volume of all the instruments ... they are certainly peaking above the vocal consistently in some places, and some compression techniques can be used to alleviate some of that.

At 1:25, the instruments are challenging the vocal.

AT 01:35, things are better in this second chorus.

I know all of you are excited about 'the bands sound' and how the mix comes together and offers the cool mix of 'all the elements' but the vocal, the lead vocal in this element is a HUGE priority, it may NEVER be challenged.

And you will probably add some backup harmony vocals to this ... where's the headroom to fit those backups in underneath the lead ? You might be able to squeeze them in under the lead, but you are never going to have enough room to show off any character and really present those backup vocals. You need to make that headroom now, reduce the level of the instruments, OVERDO the headroom for the lead vocal.

This will also assist the backup vocalists as they lay their tracks, they will be able to monitor themselves much better, and sing in tune better ... etc ...

If you are not thinking of adding backup vocals to this, your really should think again. The genre demands it.

At 02:30, the vocal is really on top at that point, of course, and the dynamic contrasts can be even better, if his vocal is not challenged during the louder parts of the song.

Realize, that once you address any boominess or mud in the bass and lower mids of the guitar, a lot of these problems will be solved, or seem to be lessened, and you will get a new perspective on the mix.

SECOND LISTEN : (Sony MDR-7506, super clean pristine headphones)
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Guitar is quite crisp in the beginning, and I like it.

I hear a carefully crafted volume swell at 00:09 to 00:10 of a guitar ... cut that, it just interferes with the nice sweet beauty of that intro acoustic guitar, it's not necessary, cut it. And I could only hear it on the headphones. If anything it distracts from the nice clean vocal entrance, that vocal entrance is soooo good, you don't need to risk it with that tiny bit of guitar swell thing ...

Great pre-chorus, the acoustic guitar gets a bit loud on the end of his vocal. Fashion a fade down on that guitar there. Let every single bit of his vocal have the light of day, always. The last little bit of his vocal is still very important.

And yes, sure, mix the guitar INTO the last bit of his vocal, but keep the vox on top for as long as possible.

This first chorus is great, but the instruments are approaching 'noisy', they could be much cleaner with some EQ work, and that's tough stuff and requires some homework. And that 'noisyness' is what is challenging the vocal.

At 1:30 the vocal is definitely challenged, and that's the actual title hook of the song, and that's a big no-no.

If no instruments were playing at all at that point, and he was belting out the lyric hook, that would be better than the challenge of noise at that point, somewhere inbetween those two points is going to be a great mix.

And pay attention here, I'm not being critical of the playing, all of you are fine performers ... good tracks ... you've got some real cumulative volume build up issues amongst these tracks, and judicious use of EQ is warranted here.

Working the faders alone is not going to do the trick to get the 'fantastic mix' I know all of you want. Some EQ work here is must for that 'mud'.

You have got to use your meters and think about what you are seeing on them ... ya paid for 'em didn' cha :D ...

At the vocal entrance at 02:15.

I hear some stuff, some vox backup echo in extreme stereo left, cut that or make it part of the song by bringing it up, at that level, it's ineffective and just adds to the cumulative noise effect.

If you are going for some type of subliminal thing ... that's only in the movies and on tv :D ...

GREAT SONG, GREAT PERFORMANCES ... GREAT BEGINNING of what can be a FANTASTIC MIX.

And it's certainly good enough now to press and sell, but I encourage you to take it to the next level, a professional level.

I think you and all of the band members should SERIOUSLY consider taking all of these tracks to a PROFESSIONAL well known mixing studio and sitting in on a session with their best engineer as he mixes and EQ's these tracks.

It will take him about an hour to do some INCREDIBLE things with the gear and ears he has.

This will be a really easy and efficient session for him as most of the work is done. I think for no more than $150.00 max you could come out with an INCREDIBLE mix.

Be sure and research the studio's engineers, know what and who they are mixing. DON'T get a friend to do it for cheap, you will end up with one less friend or a bad mix possibly and it's not worth it.

And this person that mixes at a pro studio is objective, and has fresh ears and that's well worth the money already. Then take it to another place and spend another $100.00 mastering it and you have an AWESOME song that will get radio play without a doubt.

Most importantly, after a pro mixing session on this tune, have a 15 minute discussion with the engineer and THEN ask questions about what he did, take notes, learn.

AND REPORT BACK TO YOUR FELLOW CLINIC MEMBERS :D !

Thanks for posting and sharing, thanks for your hard work for the Clinic, your band and the music.
 
WHOA thanks a ton studioviols.. it'll take a while to apply all that!!! I really appreciate the input! it's homework time for me but I'll get back on and try to fix a few of those issues today, thanks man! ~jim
 
WELL.. my first try at putting all your suggestions is on the site again: http://www.jimmychalk.com under "Sunday Afternoon Square One."

I bussed all the instruments out to Aux 2 and put compression on that, but I wasn't able to buss all the vox out bc I had a drum buss already... and as far as i can TELL... sonar has only 2 auxes.

Also... I took out the electric guitar swell in the intro as well as the bass bend right before the build up at the end. (you can check out the old mix on the site too.)

thanks again everyone, I'm looking forward to hearing y'all! have a good one ~jim
 
WELL.. my first try at putting all your suggestions is on the site again: http://www.jimmychalk.com under "Sunday Afternoon Square One."

I bussed all the instruments out to Aux 2 and put compression on that, but I wasn't able to buss all the vox out bc I had a drum buss already... and as far as i can TELL... sonar has only 2 auxes.

Also... I took out the electric guitar swell in the intro as well as the bass bend right before the build up at the end. (you can check out the old mix on the site too.)

thanks again everyone, I'm looking forward to hearing y'all! have a good one ~jim

p.s. on second listen.. my inexperienced ears actually can't tell a huge difference... can y'all?
 
jimmychalk said:
as far as i can TELL... sonar has only 2 auxes.

In SONAR at the top in the menus under options->Audio, you can configure SONAR to use up to 64 busses.

And I figure you will now be going bus crazy, and it's good idea to bus each instrument group, it gives you a lot of flexibility.

I'm DL'ing the mix right now.

This is fun.

This is what this CLINIC is for, not to take my suggestions specifically :D , but to repost mixes in response ... blah blah blah :D

And now that you have discovered 'bus magic' you can apply effects to one bus, and it won't affect the other bus, you can pop a compressor on a bus, and compress everything feeding that bus ... an EQ on the whole instrument mix ... etc ... etc ...

There is something called 'bus mastering' which is what applying a compressor and an EQ to the entire 'instrument bus' is all about.
 
I'm set up now with SquareOne1004.mp3, and SquareOne1005.mp3 in the playlist in Windows Media Player, so I can 'A-B', change back and forth between them, to study the differences.

It seems the level of the acoustic guitar has come down in the intro, and that's your call, it was never challenging the vocal, but in keeping in line with the 'develop some headroom' philosophy, I think you have to do this for now. You may want to bring only the acoustic back up in the into and continue with that level, on the acoustic, through the pre-chorus. But now, you have lots of headroom to decide that as you compare that section with other places in the mix.

Really, all the way through the Pre-Chorus, the level of the acoustic was ok with the vocal riding well out on top, now, there's no question and that's good as you can now 'work the mix' to a close, and you are assured that you have plenty of headroom to work with.

The vocal in the Pre-chorus is great, it's like 'totally on top' ...

And now, when the other instruments come on in the primary chorus, they 'accompany' much better. The singer is the star, the chicks are in love, and they buy the CD ... :D

As the first 'primary' chorus starts, wow, the difference is really remarkable. The vocal doubling is much, much more clear now, and there is now plenty of room to add the backup and harmony vocals to the chorus.

Now that you have all the instruments sent to one bus, you can apply the standard Cakewalk EQ and experiment with affecting the different frequency ranges of the 'complete instrument mix', and you can 'bus master' that submix. You can split those drum tracks to another bus also, and 'bus master' the drum submix.

Here's another technique to consider. You will notice, that the lead singer has a 'soft voice', he's not a screamer, I mean he's singing 'very nice'. He has good pronunciation also. In the intro, and pre-chorus, you can apply an EQ to the vocal bus, and take some of his top end of his voice out, that will make it smoother and less 'nasal'.

When the chorus 'hits', let his upper mids ring out, (put back what you were taking out with the EQ on the vocal bus), and that will keep him 'on top' of the thicker and heavier chorus mix. So pushing the fader does make things louder, but just a touch of EQ, at the same volume, can do amazing things, it can change the 'apparent volume' ... how we really 'percieve' that volume fader setting.

At the end of the first chorus ... the word 'today' really sits up out of the mix now, and we the listener can be much more assured that the chorus ... is over, thus we can now look forward to the rest of the good stuff coming. You exit the song from the first chorus more effectively.

Now the instrumental bridge, or break, between the first chorus and the second verse makes much more sense, now we hear loud instruments, and you could even bring the instrument bus mix just up a touch during this section, so the listener can rock out for a bit, but do this tastefully, just a hint more volume, because you are going to have to bring it back down gently for the next verse, and here you have the opportunity to create sublte and tasteful dynamic contrast as you move into the instrumental break, through it, and then finally bring the instruments down a hair for the next verse.

The listener can respond to that contrast ... with more attention.

I'm enjoying the second verse a lot more, the line 'I'm talking with an idiot' is a lot better I can hear it and enjoy it more :D
This second verse is really very complex lyrically and it has got to ride out on top to be understood easily.

The second chorus is much better. We have a star singing there.

The cymbal 'bell hit' needs to come way down. It's sticking out a bit. And you may have to do this with the EQ after you split the drums to their own bus. You would then apply an EQ to the drum bus, and hunt down that bell and cut the boost on its upper mids I believe, but that's all you :D .

I would bring the guitars up starting at the end of the second chorus, until they are really, really loud, rock out through that next section. And then start to bring them down for the hooks and outro, and then down even more, in the chorus outro, and again, you create dynamics through those sections ... and you are already doing that well with the performance and the writing ... and then the drums a final buildup to the outro ... yeah and he's wailing out on top at the end of the mix ... excellent, I'd just use one vocal track here, and hit it with a lot of delay as it goes out, or back down the second track quite a bit ... lots of delay on the last bit of his vocal and let all that stuff coast together.

Now that you have a seperate bus for the vocal, you can apply a delay to that bus, and draw a volume envelope for just that effect, and pop it up on the vocal at the end.

This has been fun. And remember, as you listen to the mix in the next few weeks, you will always be thinking the instruments are not loud enough, and that's a natural tendancy of a lot of us ... you must have solid proof at this point to 'use headroom' there has to be a good reason to 'use that headroom' because you will need some headroom to master with.
 
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