Need mentoring in mixing

J

Janalex

New member
Hi,

This is essentially my first post here.

I'm relatively new to the world of recording but I'm extremely passionate and dedicated. I'm a guitarist of 25 years and have been writing stuff the entire time but now I've been unfortunate to acquire some nice pro audio equipment and finally have the opportunity and time to record. Music is in the classic rock genre and I'm trying to use as much analog gear as possible to approximate the sound I love. However, there's only so far one can get without any formal audio engineering training and I'm looking for some objective, constructive, detailed, and specific feedback for how to take my mixes to the next level prior to mastering. I'm looking for an experienced mentor of sorts who has experience with this kind of music and maybe even worked in it as well as knows how it should sound prior to mastering to get the best product. Please PM info if available and I can share files with you. I'm not sure if this can be successfully done online or whether anyone is in the NY city area.
 
Janalex said:
Hi,

This is essentially my first post here.

I'm relatively new to the world of recording but I'm extremely passionate and dedicated. I'm a guitarist of 25 years and have been writing stuff the entire time but now I've been unfortunate to acquire some nice pro audio equipment and finally have the opportunity and time to record. Music is in the classic rock genre and I'm trying to use as much analog gear as possible to approximate the sound I love. However, there's only so far one can get without any formal audio engineering training and I'm looking for some objective, constructive, detailed, and specific feedback for how to take my mixes to the next level prior to mastering. I'm looking for an experienced mentor of sorts who has experience with this kind of music and maybe even worked in it as well as knows how it should sound prior to mastering to get the best product. Please PM info if available and I can share files with you. I'm not sure if this can be successfully done online or whether anyone is in the NY city area.
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the first thing i would do is read a few of the good books on mixing

then of course you will need practice to be proficient at doing it yourself
but at least you will know what is good and that you should be doing to get a good mix

it will be cheaper and faster to do that before you start dealing with people to learn about mixing
 
That's the thing. I know the theory well. It's the application that's not coming together past a certain point.
 
Janalex said:
That's the thing. I know the theory well. It's the application that's not coming together past a certain point.
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if you can ask specific questions then the forum could help

if you need tutoring there must be a lot of folks in nyc area that could do it for a fee
 
I’ve been searching for someone in ny with formal training to tutor me for awhile and come up short. Still looking though! In the meantime I’ll try to ask a specific question in the mixing techniques forum.
 
What you haven't done is practice mixing. I bet you have practiced things on your guitar, and probably never read a book on how to do this in your life, once you got past Bert Weedon's play in a day, or whatever the US equivalent is.

I also think it possible you consider that again like playing an instrument, not everyone can do it naturally, and you can have somebody with high grades in music totally unable to play in a band by ear.

When don't you start with something simple. Youtube is a great source of source tracks. Start with something really simple - and I'd ignore drums for the moment. Can you find a voice, a guitar and a bass - and practice on those. As for engineering background? Thousands of successful professionals earning serious dosh, have no background other than their ear and patience. Start with NO effects. when I was a music tech teacher, we'd start people with 4 tracks as a maximum limit. Then initially, ban eq and ban effects. Leaving level and pan the only options. Then allow eq, and only then allow effects. What was very obvious was that some people just used two fingers on each hand for the four faders, closed their eyes and made the 4 sources kind of coalesce into 'music'. Others would try to mix by numbers, setting -4.5dB on one fader and -9.23dB on the other, but just not sounding right. The people with the ear, would, just weeks later be up to 16 tracks, and by the year after using dynamic processing, clever eq and effects and making a great sound. Others would still at the 4 track stage, making little progress. Reading and studying don't help. They do help learning how to set up advance configurations, and working out what is going on - but it really isn't equipment, it's talent.
 
I agree. Theory is nice and important for a foundation but then itÂ’s all experience after that. In terms of experience I have been obsessively trying to mix my recordings which aren’t all that complex ( 2 guitars, wurly, Hammond, vocal, drums) and although friends say they sound great (likely cause the source tracks are authentic) and the performances are good, I can hear that they don’t stand up to pro recordings. I’m certain this has to do with overlapping frequencies in the low mids and mids as it sounds rather flat. Now I’m at a point that I’m just chasing my tail cause after the last 6 days of trying various things on this one track I will listen to the mix from day 1 and I just cycled back to it.

I’ve studied many things in life from music to electrical engineering to medicine and nothing has furthered my understanding more than when I worked with a pro. You just cant get that far in a vacuum. The vids on eBay that I’ve seen start out very promising but then they start the tracks and it’s always some modern 24 track production of electronic or Sampled music that I just can’t sit through cause even after it’s done being mixed it sounds cold and sterile by nature of the music itself.
 
Janalex said:
I agree. Theory is nice and important for a foundation but then itÂ’s all experience after that. In terms of experience I have been obsessively trying to mix my recordings which aren’t all that complex ( 2 guitars, wurly, Hammond, vocal, drums) and although friends say they sound great (likely cause the source tracks are authentic) and the performances are good, I can hear that they don’t stand up to pro recordings. I’m certain this has to do with overlapping frequencies in the low mids and mids as it sounds rather flat. Now I’m at a point that I’m just chasing my tail cause after 6 days of trying various things I will listen to the mix from day 1 and I just cycled back to it.

I’ve studied many things in life from music to electrical engineering to medicine and nothing has furthered my understanding more than when I worked with a pro. You just cant get that far in a vacuum. The vids on eBay that I’ve seen start out very promising but then they start the tracks and it’s always some modern 24 track production of electronic or Sampled music that I just can’t sit through cause even after it’s done being mixed it sounds cold and sterile by nature of the music itself.
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When I taught at the uni they told me that people learn in 4 different ways. Clearly you need the demonstration approach.

Start simple not with complex things and work your way up slowly as you learn how to do basic things before the complex ones.

If you studied EE then you should be able to write down your goals for the mixing and then devise a process that would guide your efforts to do a mix.

After you do that and perfect it then you would get a lot more from a person working with you. Else there is great risk that you will be more confused and frustrated when you do not achieve what your goal is.

Instead of chasing your tail in circles define what a good mix is and measure what is wrong with your mix and then attack the problem directly instead of doing random things you try.
 
Thanks. You sound very knowledgeable. Any chances I can share a file with you on google drive and you can focus me on what needs the most work? I can hear what this mix should sound like in my head but have exhausted all the things I can come up with to get there. It probably needs some very intentional EQ moves that I just can’t find. Maybe some comments from you will steer me in a different direction which I can’t see now.
 
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I went through this process several years ago. Like most of us, I noticed differences in my recordings and a typical studio mix. The first step was to spend too much money on gear that did very little to improve the situation. The second step, was to read. That gave me plenty of insight and theory but only helped a little at the margins. Then I bought into the idea that the real difference was mastering. I tried a couple of different mastering companies and it helped a bit. The music was louder with better EQ and compression but still lacking. It still had the "stink" of home recording written all over it. My final shot was to turn my tracks over to a studio that did mixing. Again, the results were different and even perhaps better. But only by a hair. It still sounded off. So I gave up and moved to the visual arts. For me, at least, I did much better. There were more opportunities and I found that I was actually better with my eyes than with my ears.

Now the lure of home recording has drawn me back. But this time around, I started at the most fundamental level possible: the room. I learned as much as I could about room acoustics and I've treated my space until I'm blue in the face. I took measurements with REW (Room EQ Wizzard) and learned some details about how to interpret the information. This time I'm convinced that the problem is the room. If I can cure that, and that's a big if, the final product will certainly be better. I'll let you know if that happens, but it's a good theory. In the meantime, I'm going to buy some expensive monitors. And so the cycle repeats. :D
 
dwillis45 said:
I went through this process several years ago. Like most of us, I noticed differences in my recordings and a typical studio mix. The first step was to spend too much money on gear that did very little to improve the situation. The second step, was to read. That gave me plenty of insight and theory but only helped a little at the margins. Then I bought into the idea that the real difference was mastering. I tried a couple of different mastering companies and it helped a bit. The music was louder with better EQ and compression but still lacking. It still had the "stink" of home recording written all over it. My final shot was to turn my tracks over to a studio that did mixing. Again, the results were different and even perhaps better. But only by a hair. It still sounded off. So I gave up and moved to the visual arts. For me, at least, I did much better. There were more opportunities and I found that I was actually better with my eyes than with my ears.

Now the lure of home recording has drawn me back. But this time around, I started at the most fundamental level possible: the room. I learned as much as I could about room acoustics and I've treated my space until I'm blue in the face. I took measurements with REW (Room EQ Wizzard) and learned some details about how to interpret the information. This time I'm convinced that the problem is the room. If I can cure that, and that's a big if, the final product will certainly be better. I'll let you know if that happens, but it's a good theory. In the meantime, I'm going to buy some expensive monitors. And so the cycle repeats. :D
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It should go withoutsaying that GIGO rules in audio too.

If the room is bad, the mikes misused, tracking done poorly , yada yada then no amount of mixing will get a good result.

Another problem is that what is good is very subjective. You should make your mix sound good to you and stop worrying about trying to copy somebody elses results.

Finally it depends on your skill not the gear you use. After you have made your track as good as possible then more changes will only make it different (or worse) but never better. You have to know when to say this is the best that I can do with the recording that was the best that I could do in the room that I have to use and then stop. Put a ribbon on it and move on to another project.
 
Yes room can help. However I’ve recorded in holes in the Wall in Brooklyn with my bands and they came out pro. Keith Richards amp was stuffed in a closet for brown sugar and i am playing on a vintage tele and tweed amp and my sound is flatter. Using tape and a console. The talent of a mixing engineer makes a big difference.
 
Janalex said:
Yes room can help. However I’ve recorded in holes in the Wall in Brooklyn with my bands and they came out pro. Keith Richards amp was stuffed in a closet for brown sugar and i am playing on a vintage tele and tweed amp and my sound is flatter. Using tape and a console. The talent of a mixing engineer makes a big difference.
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Ahhhhh....and there you have hit on the core of the issue.........the talent of the mixing engineer. And I'm sure his talent came from hours and days and years of practice....failure.....learning....etc....etc.

As an aside......you can send a mix to another person for advice and likely get some learning from his / her advice. But....be aware that every mix is different and your next mix might need different advice for different reasons. Not to say that learning mixing is a never ending process......although it sorta is........what you learn from others and from your own attempts will add up over time..........and your results will get better and better. So.....stay at it.
 
All true. Definitely will keep chugging away. Although I believe that some mentoring or guidance will get me there a little more efficiently
 
Janalex said:
All true. Definitely will keep chugging away. Although I believe that some mentoring or guidance will get me there a little more efficiently
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i think you overrate mentoring and have too little confidence in your ability.

now if you are tone deaf then you need ear training not a mentor

if you lack confidence that your mixes are as good as somebody elses that you want to copy then maybe a shrink could help

i think you need to REALLY LEARN the basics and write down what you want to achieve with your mix
write down a process that can get you to the result you want
do it

write them in a post and let folks see what you think good mixing and method in mixing is

now if the room sucks or the gear is misused then you need to step back and see how to record in that room better before you mix

and please remember that the result is subjective. there is no logical objective way to say one is better than another.
only that you or somebody else likes one or the other or not.

now if your goal is to be rich and famous then realise that there are several other key factors in doing that besides how your mix sounds
most of those take time and hard work. plus you still need some luck. this is a very long tailed phenomenon with millions maybe billions of artistes seeking to rise to the top while most can barely get any attention at all.
 
I think that one of the learning curves is knowing when to remove stuff from the sound an instrument makes. I'm really a bass player, so when I play piano, my left hand plays a bass part. Trouble is, my bass track has lots of those notes in it too, so I often roll off the left hand of my piano parts and while soloed, it sounds weak, it doesn't when the real bass is there. If you sit with a great producer/engineer, they cannot vocalise what they are doing - it's instinctive - they listen and reach for a control and turn it and if you ask them why, they don't know.

If you want to send me a message, I'll happily have a listen to your mix and make an honest comment.

The thing that was mentioned earlier is learning styles - when you do your teacher training this is one of the critical modules early on, and we are all different. Most musicians are kinaesthetic - touchy feely. They learn best by doing and experimenting, but some people cannot learn this way at all - it just doesn't work.

It can be fun trying to work out what you are - there's a good questionnaire here that will tell you how bets you learn.

The VARK Questionnaire | VARK
 
Post up a mix here so we have an idea of where you are at now.

I am not clear as to what you are recording with either. That would really help. :)

Advice is free here.
 
Janalex said:
Yes room can help. However I’ve recorded in holes in the Wall in Brooklyn with my bands and they came out pro. Keith Richards amp was stuffed in a closet for brown sugar and i am playing on a vintage tele and tweed amp and my sound is flatter. Using tape and a console. The talent of a mixing engineer makes a big difference.
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Sure. Every step makes a difference. Weighting each step, though, is really a fool's errand. It's all necessary and that's why you have recording engineers, mixing engineers, mastering engineers, arrangers, producers, executive producers, groupies, and the kid who get's sent out for coffee, drugs, or specialty items like finger sandwiches.

In this age of high technology, DIY spirit, and self-empowerment, we sometimes get the impression that we can do it all. That we can wear multiple hats and perfect the process from beginning to end. Realistically, though, I would argue that most professional material is a group effort. Certainly, 99 percent of classic rock was recorded that way. That doesn't mean that some guy in a basement in Toledo can't make good music. It's just that the odds are somewhat stacked against you. It's like playing a basketball game five on one. :D
 
mr average said:
You have to know when to say this is the best that I can do with the recording that was the best that I could do in the room that I have to use and then stop. Put a ribbon on it and move on to another project.
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Yeah, I get that perspective. I have a collection of "musical pigs" dating back to the 1980's. They all have ribbons and some even have lipstick. :D But sometimes I feel like I've moved on too many times. Sometimes I feel like going back and trying again and again--all in the somewhat naive hope that recording nirvana is just around the corner. Besides, knocking your head against the wall can be fun.
 
Janalex said:
Any chances I can share a file with you on google drive and you can focus me on what needs the most work?
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Another possibility is to upload the source files to google drive. If you did that, for example, I (or someone else motivated to do so) could download them, do a mix and send it to you. If you liked the mix, you could ask questions on what was done and incorporate that into your own mixes.
 
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