where is the loudness??

Freudian Slip

Freudian Slip

New member
OK I have been caught up in the loudness game for a while now and I have made great improvements. What gets me is I can export a file that is always at least -3db and is clipping past zero at a few points but, I can download almost any mp3 off the net and it has far more signal (as viewed by winamp).
What is the deal? should I push the meters higher yet in CW. I always thought that in digital zero was pretty much it??? Is there a seperate program for raising levels (not compression) that I don't know about?

I am using CW9.0., Ozone, and other compression programs.

Should I just push CW till I hear it clip and then back off??

Any help would be great.

F.S.
 
For what it's worth, I've been told that many software designers pad their meters a bit to avoid clipping when people get too close to zero. So, in these cases, what you see maxing at -2db might actually be maxing at -2.5db.

But 3db is a hell of a lot to pad, so I would either limit the spikes that take you above 0, then bring the overall level up; or, crank the meters until you hear it clip - then back it off a hair and see where it peaks in another program.

I don't know if I'd trust Winamp's meters for an accurate measurement though...
 
Thanks Seanmorse79. What I ment was not that it clips at -3db but that my signal for the main part of the song never drops below -3db. The meter in cw does peak when it indicates clip. I still don't hear a clip and I think I will try pressing it further as you suggested. I feel like I have the peaks pretty well chopped off. 3db of range in the hard parts of the song would seem pretty minimal to me.???

By the way I figured out winamps deal. I converted the test track in gold wave to an mp3 and wammo! it read higher on the meters. Win amp must read mp3 signal level different than cd or wave files. I really only use it for referrence to other songs. Next time I will make sure they are in the same format.



Thanks Again.

FS
 
No, as a part of the mp3 encoding, the audio goes through some normalization and compression. Already heavily compressed .wav files tend to REALLY sound squished when encoding to mp3, and they tend to get a bit harsher sounding too.

Ed
 
sonusman: Ahhhh! Thanks! That makes sence...
It really doesn't seem that much louder though? I know mp3 encoding is supposed to wipe alot of the sound you wouldn't notice out, maybe that's why?


F.S.
 
A few years ago I read a lot about the why's of mp3 encoding concerning how the dynamic range is effected, but that is dry reading and really didn't matter that much. It IS a lossy data compression!

Yeah, it isn't like it get's REALLY loud. Just a little less dynamic really.

Anywho....

Ed
 
If you're cought in the loudness game like me then you really need a mastering limiter.

I use a cheap one from db-audioware and have had good experiences with it...

http://www.db-audioware.com/dbl.htm

Just set the output to like -0.1 and I can usually boost an additional 12db before artifacts become noticable...and it never clips... awsome for hardcore kickdrums :)
 
zekthedeadcom, I would like to hear some audio where the original had an average level around say, -12dB with peaks that sit at around -2, where you were able to get another 12dB of gain without "noticable artifacts" using ANY limiter.

If you can confidently say that you have something that fits this description, please make a 10 second example of the before limiting .wav file and a the same section after limiting available. I would love to hear that!!! ;) The thing is, you would be accomplishing something NO mastering engineer in the world could accomplish.

Now, it would be quite possible on some material to get another 12dB of gain without distortion artifacts being audible, but this material would have to have NO frequency content below like about 400Hz! Then we would have to start talking about what would be acceptable distortion artifacts. It would seem that in todays modern hard rock, "acceptable" is a high amount of distortion from limiting. :)

Peace.

Ed
 
heh just because it can be done doesn't mean it should be done :) I will boost until I don't like it or if it's just too loud... I don't have magic ears :)

but... the following is a scratch track to a demo I just finished tracking and the band wanted a "quicker" demo so they could start booking... all included about 4 hours tracking 3 hours mixing for 7 songs. It was a live 8 track take in a basement (SONAR XL 2.0, Q10) and the vocals were done over it (vox took the most time as the main vocalist blew out his voice)

the raw track -


what I gave them for their quick demo (+5 boost and some EQ)


an finally as a novilty a +16 boost in the cheap multiband limiter...
If I was doing this for real for some sick reason, I would take some lows out and some highs too ...and use the de-esser :) as the ssss are pretty harsh..but no "pumping and breathing" from what I hear in my headphones (7506's) ... I don't have my monitors pluged in right now :P



amaizingly I have had some songs mixed much worse than the raw track get played on small stations. WFHB is one where I had a band get added to a local novilty show last week...even though they lived over 150 miles from the station... and trust me...THAT was a shitty recording but it was free for them as they were my second band :)

I wouldn't give a recording a "military flat top" anyway as it gets compressed and limited again if it's broadcast...and that can sound REALLY crappy..case in point - WNCI in Columbus, OH is unbearable when they play hiphop ...the bass hits go from BOOOM to poof

well enjoy :)

oh and yeah... it doesn't" really" get louder just a lot more less dynamic..is correct .. but think of acoustic energy as being a sidways bell... the peaks are usually transients that can be squashed but once you get to the "meat and potatos" of the spectrium the sound is much less forgiving. Some styles need those transients... like harps..which I learned the hardway :P some styles don't..like a lot of metal and rock.

peace
sam
zekthedeadcow@hotmail.com
http://www.track100.com
 
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