Live volume vs. recording input volume

A

A Drummer

New member
Hello gurus - I'm wondering if you could help me brainstorm a bit.

I have a PC DAW with Cakewalk Guitar Tracks 2.0, with an 8 channel mixer going into my Soundblaster's Line input. We have a headphone amp that comes out of the Soundblaster's line out, and then we're able to adjust the overall volume to whatever we want with the headphone amp.

When we record, we like to do it as much live as possible, so we usually have things pretty cranked in the headphones. The problem is that this is limited to the overall volume. The guitar player would love to be able to take me out of his headphone mix. What do I need to do (what equipment would I need) to make this dream a reality? Basically to have a "recording" mix and a "monitor" (headphone) mix?

If this is a newbie question feel free to move it to that section...
 
Depending on your outboard mixer, it could be done. How many Aux sends does it have? How are you sending each individual instrument to tape (computer)?
 
You can either use the monitor or aux sends on the mixer and send them directly to the headphone amp. You would need a seperate amp for every mix.

For example use FX1 for one mix and FX2 for the other. Send the appropriate amount to each FX send for the mix.

If you get a sound card with multiple outs you can send specific signals to those outs and use cakewalk to mix the monitor sends.
Your SB may have rear outs. You can use front outs for one mix and the rears for the other.

Getting more than 2 mixes will probably require a serious mixer and some extra amps unless you are very creative.

Cheap boomboxes make good extra headphone amps. You can also split line out signals and send them to an extra cheap mixer for a monitor mix.
 
I do have a SB LIVE value. I think you're right - I'm pretty sure that I have a rear output, it's black I believe. I'm not sure if what you suggested would quite work though - since the guitar player and I record both at the same time, so it's all one signal going into the mixer and then into Cakewalk. How would I be able to separate that into two mixes as we record live?

Do do your first suggestion with the mixer, I would need a mixer that had "busses" on it so I could route my drum channels to one bus and the guitars to another, and then out the AUX's? Is that right? If so, I unfortunately do not have a mixer that can do that to my knowledge.

Can you elaborate further on the boombox thing and your sentence, "You can also split line out signals and send them to an extra cheap mixer for a monitor mix." Both sound rather intriguing.

Thanks much for the responses.
 
Within cakewalk you should be able to assign an output for each track. That output will apply during recording and playback. I use Logic so it may be a little different. But you could use 2 busses within cakewalk as the 2 monitor mixes. Assign one buss to the SB front out and the other buss to the SB rear out. (they may be labeled 1-4 instead.)

Now within Cakewalk whatever you send to those busses will be sent out on those outputs. Use the bus send on each channel to determine how much is sent to that particular bus.

You would now have 2 seperate stereo mixes out of the line outs on your SB. Send one to your headphone amp and the other to a boombox/receiver (it needs a line in and headphone jack) with a headphone attached and you have 2 seperate headphone mixes.

Using splitters can screw up the signal and should only be used for playback tracks and not while recording a track. You would also need more outputs out of your card and a second mixer. Try the above method first and let me know if you have any specific questions on the process.
 
I think I get what you're saying but I'm still not quite sure if it will work because the signal that we have going into Cakewalk is just one signal - guitar and drums together, not separate tracks. So the way I'm understanding is if Cakewalk can do as you are describing, I will have two mixes of exactly the same thing, because we aren't recording on separate tracks. Do you see what I'm getting at, or am I missing something?

Thanks much
 
If your recording everything together than sending a stereo mix to Cakewalk... yes you're screwed.

What mixer are you using? It doesnt have any FX or buss sends?

If you guys are recording drums and guitar at the same time but he doesnt want to hear you then why bother recording at the same time anyway? Just do the drums then overdub the guitars.
 
Yes, we are recording a stereo line from mixer into the SBLive.

Our mixer is a VERY old Studiomaster something or other. I can find out, but it's an eight channel power mixer, I think 100W (50x2). I'd say the thing is 70's. It does say two buss on it, so maybe it has two different busses but I just don't know how to use them...the thing is on it's way out - one thing I do know is that the left channel is completely fried, so all we can do it use the right one and use the right line out (Y-adapter out to line in sound card).

Anyway, we could record separately easy enough but it's much more fun to record live. This isn't for any serious recording - when we get around to that we will for sure record separately - I just wanted to know if I had options with my current gear.

Tell me if I'm rigtht in this assumption then: I need to get a multiple input sound card and a new mixer to give each drum and guitar a separate track and then buss them out that way to separate mixes, out the line outs of the sound card and that's it? That about my only option?

I really appreciate your help.
 
When you get serious definately ditch the mixer. Save that for practice jams.

One other monitor option is to get a mixer with at least 4 busses. You can also use FX/Aux sends. A mackie 1604 would do the job for you. The mackie 1202 also has 2 aux sends but it doesnt have many mic preamps.

The mackie's also have direct outs for each channel that can be sent to multiple inputs on a Delta card.

When it comes time to buy you need to figure out how many channels you want to record at once and how many monitor mixes you need. Then you can make the right decision on the mixer.
 
Yeah I've bben thinking about getting the Behringer MX2004. It has 8 channel inserts, which is what I'm really wanting it for. Just to go from the mixer to the Delta. I've been going back and forth, on whether to get a Mackie or a Behringer. I've read a lot of posts on this forum on this subject. Since all I need the mixer for is recording an output to a sound card, I don't see the problem with the Behringer, since as I understand it, when you use the channel inserts, even though they aren't official "direct outs", you effectively disable the EQ and faders on the mixer, and then all you have is control within Cakewalk. I see this as a good thing? Anyway, if the Mackie can give me $300 more quality than the Behringer, then I may get it, but from what I've been reading, that's probably not the case.

Would you be able to tell me the real difference between a channel insert and a direct out? I've seen other posts but haven't been able to clearly derive the difference between the two.

Thanx for your advice and your time Tex.
 
I would recomend a Mackie over Behringer any day. The mackie will not dissapoint you and will have great resale value. There is a mackie used as a submixer in almost every pro audio/video studio in the world.

If you truly trust your ears and know what sounds good then you can probably get good results with a Beheringer. If you want something a little more proven and an industry standard then go with Mackie. Based on your monitoring needs I would get a used mackie 1604VLZ for maximum flexibility. A 1202 will work but will be a little more limited, especially for micing drums.

The main difference between a direct out and an insert is that a Direct out only goes out while an insert is really a Direct In. The DO usually sends the preamp signal directly out and bypasses the fader and EQ. The insert puts the signal back in at the same spot after the preamp and before the fader and EQ.

The newer compact mixers combine the direct out/insert into one stereo/TRS jack but some bigger mixers use 2 seperate mono jacks for those.
 
Ok, thanx again for the advice, and for clearing up the channel insert/direct out mystery for me.

I'll be thinking long and hard about what mixer to get...
 
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