Hey Larry of the Compressors...

S8-N

S8-N

..|.. Part-time Antichrist ..|..
When I record from a professionally done CD to Wav. and look at the wav. it looks as if there no dynamic peaks at all... totally flat...
I assume that they use compression to achieve this.
My question is this... When I am recording... should I compress (limit, EQ, etc.) each track to get it to its max volume and then mixdown on should I leave the Dynamic peaks in each track, then mixdown and then compress???

S8-N
 
Check-out my reponse to the post "acoustic guitar and compression" in the Recording Techniques Forum.

Also, pro CDs are either normalized or compressed (digital or analog) to increase overall loudness; therefore, decreasing dynamic range. The object is to get the perfect amount of both. This is all a part of mastering.
 
S8N, I try not to compress at all when tracking. In reality, though I wind up having to apply come LIGHT compression on more that 90% of the vocalists I've worked with, just because of how they work the mic (moving around, plosives, etc). I usually only use noise gates when tracking drums, and save any heavy duty squishing for mixdown, where I can experiment without committing like I'd have to at tracking time. In fact I don't track with eq, fx or anything else, although I'll do whatever the artists want in the headphone mix.

That's the whole reason for tracking "dry", you're not committed, and so once you get the mic placement, your artist is only working to nail the performance. Keeps the equipment as transparent to the artist as possible.
 
<If I split my posts up like this I'll be a fuill member sooner>

I agree w/Recording Eng. too. Mastering is an art unto itself. You wouldn't compress the snot out of a piano recital, or orchestra, but might give up dynamics for loud for some headbanging album. There's also the client who wants "my stuff to be louder then his stuff". Well, I'm not the artist, so if that's what they're demanding, it's their money...give 'em what they want. Sort of the hooker philosophy of engineering.

On this topic, have you dropped in at the 3daudio bbs? I only lurk there, these guys are pretty big fish compared to me, and they have a recurring thread that goes like:
"God help me, my client wnats me to compress the snot out of his CD"
"yeah I get that all the time"
"What a jerk"
"it's all radio's fault"
"Well, we ought to have more integrity"
"but we've all gotta eat"

Repeat chorus.

Kind of amusing, but sort of like looking at a traffic accident too.
 
You bring up a good point, Larry. I'm not a professional studio owner, I just do it for myself, but there are quite a few of you out there that do charge $ for services.

My friend who owns a pro studio tells me that he's the boss behind the board, and it's his reputation on the line. If someone reads the liner notes off a crappy sounding CD and sees his name, that's going to negatively affect his business. He feels that it's safe to sacrifice a client who is unwilling to let him do his job and make them sound good than to lose the potential client who is turned off by a crappy recording.

What do you guys think?
 
If an engineer tried that crap with me he wouldn't get paid...
Just because they know how to turn knobs doesn't mean they know MY music... I'll leave his name off of the liner notes if he is worried about hurting his business, although with that mindset I dont imagine he would have much business anyway.

S8-N
 
Man, I have to agree with the evil one on this. If I'm paying someone to do my recording (and I have), they'd better be doing it the way I want.
I can remember going to great lengths and expense to get rid of certain sounds and overtones from my music that were considered to be technically and musically bad things. Then a bunch of bands from Seattle came out and sold millions of albums by leaving all that stuff in.
The art should be left to the Artist. It's the Engineers job to put down on tape what the artist envisions, not what the engineer considers to be technically correct.
 
You misunderstand what I was saying about my friend, that was my fault for not explaining his opinion correctly. In no way does he interfere with the artistic integrity of the music, but instead must be the middle-man between art and science. To strike this balance he has to use his artistic talents to perform as much as the guitarist or drummer or whatever. He doesn't tell the guitarist that his tone sucks or anything like that, and he never interferes with the song writing process. It has more to do with the quality of the recording. Although I will agree that he's somewhat of a snob when it comes to his attitude, I can't blame him for having standards. Every recording is a business card and commercial rolled into one. He is very good at translating the artist's ideas onto tape (or into numbers) despite his snobby attitude! I don't know why I'm spending so much time defending him, his attitude is part of the reason I got into my own studio!
 
CMiller, I'm a pro wannabe, retiring from my day job in April, and I'm working out of my own wallet to build up my inventory (mainly a variety of good/great mics). I've got quite a bit of dough tied up, so I can't afford to let a client walk out. Word of mouth is how I'm getting my clients now, so if they're not raping my daughters, breaking/stealing anything, or puking drunk, I will do everything I can to keep them happy.

Your friend is farther up the food chain than me, if his name is on anything commercial. I'm recording demos, those vanity CDs to sell at gigs, and the like.

I will ask diplomatically phrased questions when someone is obviously out of tune, or a solo isn't going well, but since I'm where I am in this business, working with primarily inexperienced musicians, I need them to like the experience. I don't have the fancy control room, lounge, the B3 and concert grand in the big room, or any of the other stuff the big fish have. I have to trade on my personality, technique, and results.

ps: I also don't take fixed price work. That tends to keep everyone focused on the project. I notice that wives and posse aren't underfoot when a wasted hour getting wasted is costing real money.



[This message has been edited by Larry Sheehan (edited 11-25-1999).]
 
Larry- Right on target.
Be it Doctor, Lawyer- Indian Chief.
Bedside Manner counts.
Your avoidance of the fixed-rate structure is a great way to let the product improve itself through more focused effort on the part of your clients. Since you mentioned results as one of your objectives, any advice you can provide to your clients toward constructive organization of their time in your studio has to improve your image. And their bottom line.
 
I have a friend who is a "Big Fish" in the business. Each project that rolls out of his studio has his name on it. His philosophy is that the client is paying him for his years of experience. He knows his gear and the sounds that go through his system. It may be foreign to some, but to him it is the back of his hand. He tells the client up front how it is before the project begins. He will adjust the levels within reason to the clients request, but mostly everthing else is all on him. The thing he will do is guarantee a great recording once all is said and done.

I am starting to take in some of his philosophy, but I will agree with Larry. When you are just starting out, especially with demos, you need to get the business. Maybe after you have several projects under your belt and learned your gear well, then you can develop a little attitude. At first an attitude sounds harsh, but after recording several projects that sound so-so due to the request of the client, you'll want more creative control. Just pushing buttons and turning knobs gets old fast, and if that is all you do, then you might as well just rent your gear to them. Remember, your studio is not just your gear, it is also YOU and your experience.
 
Man, I think I'm right in the middle of the road on this one.I guess I would think of my self as a fish in the process of getting big. I able to eat and live in modest dwellings in the heart of Chicago, all on the support of my studio work. I'm only 23, so it's hard to convince people how fluid this stuff is for me. When ever I have a first gig with a new studio or client, they automatically look
at this 23 year old kid with a mo-hawk and think "What am I getting into." It's no joke though I really do know this stuff it was pushed on me by my father, who has recorded many famous jazz bands in the Chicago area.I think when you have a client in, you sold pay special interest in what
they want out of the sound. After all they are the artist it is their painting, your just helping to pick out the frame. Just like ever rule though their are shades of gray and small print. If every engineer just turned knobs and was controlled bye the client not unlike a puppet, albums would
start sounding worse and worse. Soon there would be no need for the engineer or studio, people would just sit at home and record themselves on some stupid cassette deck or something.People come to us because of our knowledge of the accepted. I always get guys, "Man, can you make my voice sound like a robot, then put 8 tons of delay on it."Sure we can do that, but those effects
will give you a noise floor the size of Jupiter.You have to realize every musician coming into your studio, isn't always going to be

[This message has been edited by Signa1 (edited 12-01-1999).]
 
a rocket scientist!!!! Nor, will they know as much as you do about that red button that says REC, on it.

So you have to be careful, go ahead and let your ceint have control, but draw that line to where you might want to say something like, "I love that phazer too, but do you hear that hiss in the back ground, lets back off of the phazer just a little and see what happens."

An album that sounds ok to your cients will bring you satifaction with them and this is inmportant. An album that sounds more commercaible good but your ceints don't find as attractive as the one they would have mixed, has a good chance for bringing you job secerity and futur reference, and mybe if you are real lucky a little fame or inmortality. You don't want to loss the cleints that gave you a chance in the first place though so I usally try to find a perfectly middle of the road sounding album, this is a real pain sometimes but hey, I'm not geting paid because Im buitiful or that I can spell lol...

If you have to set your foot down because your client wants something extremly embarssising like, "I porpposely want you to put the keyboards in phaze, so on some stereos you hear then, and on others you don't." go ahead and say no, cause all the money your lossing just to keep that one ceint is not worth it.

As for being a snob, in no sittuation or occupation that your profitent in or the amount of money you have made doing it give you a right to cop an adittude. Thats not just good studio edicate thats just being a good person. No reson should anyone be meetheads in any aspect of life.

Sorry I like to add a little philosophy in my studio talking...


Thanks,
Signal...



[This message has been edited by Signa1 (edited 12-01-1999).]
 
Signa1,

"Go ahead and say no, cause all the money your lossing just to keep that one ceint is not worth it."

This statement hits the nail on the head. I do not want to release a mix that sounds like crap, risking future business, to satisfy one client.
 
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