anyone know of any differences between entry level graphic eq's?

ghetto3jon

New member
i'd like to throw a cheap graphic eq in my rack. i don't plan on using it that much, but i've been in studios when a graphic eq came in pretty handy in getting rid of some honk in the snare, or taking some harshness out of a guitar track. most people say that eq's cause you to deal with a problem instead of fixing it, and i agree, but i think they come in handy once in a while...

so i don't want to pay too much for something i don't plan on using that much, so has anyone used any of these eq's? is there a difference between any of them?

nady geq 131
dod sr831qx
art 351
furman 131
dbx 131
anything else in the $100-$200 range

thanks for your help.
 
ghetto3jon said:
....but i've been in studios when a graphic eq came in pretty handy...
interesting.... because a graphic EQ is practically worthless in a studio environment... what you want is some sort of parametric EQ.

I don't know of too many in that price range though............
 
Blue Bear,

I am curious as to why? I guess, in my very limited expereince, wouldn't you want as much control over the frequnecy range as possible. What is better about a parametric EQ over a graphic one? I remember another thread dealing with this, but can't remember where.

Thanks for your help.

brutus
 
The graphic EQ is not very precise in its frequency bands, and you have no control at all over the width of the frequency band.

A parametric EQ allows you to adjust the frequency band width (Q), as well as frequency selection and mount of boostor cut.

Graphic EQs are pretty much relegated to use in live environments....
 
Having a graphic eq is not "totally worthless" in the studio like Blue Bear suggests. If you need an analog eq for some particular reason, it could fill the role quite well.

The difference between a graphic eq and a parametric eq are this:

Graphic eq have fixed frequency points.

Graphic eq's have a fixed bandwidth for each frequency point (10 band are a 1 octave, 15 bands are 2/3 octave, 31 bands are 1/3 octave) Bandwidth is the "width" of frequencies that are effected by adjust the frequency point. On a 1/3 octave eq, supposedly only 1/3 of a full octave are effected by adjusting one of the bands.

There are two types of parametric eq's normally. Full parametric and semi-parametric (or quazi parametric). The only difference between the two is that Full Parametric has bandwidth control, and quazi parametric has a fixed bandwidth.

Parametric eq's have an adjustable bandwidth, which is primarily how they differ from graphic eq's.

Parametric eq's generally have less "bands" of eq you can cut/boost at the same time.

Full Parametric eq's generally can have down to a 1/10 octave bandwidth, which means that they can carve out a much smaller amount of frequency than a 1/3 octave graphic band can.

Those are the differences for the most part. Both parametric and graphic eq's use a "bell curve" type of equalization, so there is no difference there.

Which eq you use depends upon what your needs are.

Graphic eq's are normally used in live sound applications to help correct the outputted audio to make up for bad room acoustics, of a PA system that is not balanced the way you want it to be. In this application, you may have a need for several eq points to be cut and/or boosted. In the case of a 31 band 1/3 octave eq, you have 31 individual bands that can be cut/boost at once. In this application, having a bandwidth of 1/3 octave is considered perfectly acceptable. In live sound, we generally don't need as surgical of cut/boost in an eq band as we might want in the studio.

Full Parametric eq's offer less "bands" of frequencies that can be cut/boosted at the same time, but they do offer a greater ability of control over the band that you are working on. The "bandwidth" , or "Q" control is central to this increased control.


Let's say that you need to do a VERY sugical cut of a frequency to keep it from exciting a ringy filter elsewhere (or maybe your eq circuit is ringy itself!?!?!?!?!?). With a graphic eq, you can only affect the audio range in as little as 1/3 of an octave. This may be too big of an area for your tastes. This is where a full parametric eq would offer the better solution! You can zero in on the frequency with 1/10 of an octave accuracy and cut/boost it. The graphic eq just can't do this.

Let's say though that you need to effect a 2 octave region of the audio. Let's say that 1KHz needs to be cut, but you want everything up to 2KHz and down to 500Hz to be effected too. On a graphic eq, you would need to adjust 6 bands to create this eq curve. In addition, you would have to carefully do this to assimulate the "bell curve" over 2 octaves (yes each band has a bell curve in it's circuit, but when you start adjusting bands that are next to each other, there is a bit of overlap, or the "crossover point" between the bands...equally adjusting two bands next to each other the same amount on a graphic eq would produce an outputted eq curve that is not a bell curve in nature...). Thus, it is harder to get the familiar bell curve sound on a graphic eq over anything over 1/3 of an octave (if it is a 1/3 octave eq) because of a number of things. The full parametric eq in this case wins out again! You can pick your 1KHz center frequency and adjust the "Q" to be 2 octaves, and now you have a bell shaped curve centered at 1KHz with a 2 octave bandwidth. It is just much easier to do on a parametric.

Let's say though that you need to cut/boost several bands at once. On something like a poorly recorded bass guitar track, having up to 10 bands of eq is NOT totally out of the question (I know folks, in this case, I would just rather retrack the part rather than apply that much eq, but retracking is not always an option!). Most parametric eq's don't have any more than 5 bands that can be cut/boost at the same time! Yikes! What do you do? Well, a graphic eq would be much better suited in this case.

So, the above examples aside, each of these eq's has a strength and a weakness. You have to be able to access what your needs are before determining which eq is best suited to meet that need. If a lot of bands of eq at once are needed, and tight bandwidth control, or at least control tighter than 1/3 of an octave, than the graphic eq is your box! If you don't have a need for more than say a couple of bands of eq, maybe up to 4 bands, but you need bandwidth control of all those bands that is both wider and narrower than 1/3 of an octave, then the full parametric eq is your box!

In the studio, I have only a few times over the years where a two band full parametric eq with a low and high shelf filter was needed. In those cases, I usually just insert another parametric eq in the circuit.

Hope this clears things up a little bit. Blue Bear COULD HAVE spent all this fucking time writing this just as clearly as I have, but he seldomly does and just likes to impress upon you that you are a dipshit for asking the question. Well, okay, he doesn't mean to come across that way, but he does, and it is usually his laziness to explain things that causes him to post crap like he did. (sorry BB, it HAD to be said...you post like this far too often...;))

I didn't go into high and low pass filters and high and low shelf eq's in this. Neither a graphic or a parametric eq offer true pass filters or shelf filters. pass and shelf filters have key rolls in audio too. If you do a search here you could probably find a post I made about a year ago concerning all the eq types.

Ed
 
Ahem....

I said "practically worthless", not "totally worthless"..... there's a difference!

In 3 years, I have yet to use a graphic EQ in the studio.... and unless it was some flavour of Klark-Teknik, Ashly or other more expensive unit, the budget stuff (Behringer, Alesis, Rolls) would probably do more harm than good anyways! ;)
 
Re: Ahem....

Blue Bear Sound said:
I said "practically worthless", not "totally worthless"..... there's a difference!

In 3 years, I have yet to use a graphic EQ in the studio.... and unless it was some flavour of Klark-Teknik, Ashly or other more expensive unit, the budget stuff (Behringer, Alesis, Rolls) would probably do more harm than good anyways! ;)

I stand corrected! But I still don't think one would be "practically worthless" either. I have heard productions that sound much better than yours or mine that have used graphics on any number of things. They might be a bit more of a pain in the butt, butt, but certainly, eq is eq. If you need it, a graphic will fill the bill too.

I HAVE used a graphic on instruments in the studio before. Again, it was just what was needed to do the job.

Don't forget the many flavors of Yamaha, White, Biamps, ART, dbx graphics that are available too. I have ran sound systems with Behringer's Ultra Curve digital eq, and while I didn't care for having to move the cursor around to select the frequency I wanted to cut/boost, it didn't sound too bad at all, and certainly it took care of the problems I needed it to take care of just as well as any Ashley, White, Klark, etc....has!

Eq's are about flavors just like mics, preamps, compressors. Now I will agree the Alesis is crap, and wouldn't subject audio to a Peavey eq unless it was all that was there, but if both were the only thing available, I wouldn't hesistate to use it. Would I choose them? No. But I would choose them over NO eq! Or even over a very limited eq, like on Mackie 1202's!

Ed
 
sonusman said:
Hope this clears things up a little bit. Blue Bear COULD HAVE spent all this fucking time writing this just as clearly as I have, but he seldomly does and just likes to impress upon you that you are a dipshit for asking the question. Well, okay, he doesn't mean to come across that way, but he does, and it is usually his laziness to explain things that causes him to post crap like he did. (sorry BB, it HAD to be said...you post like this far too often...;))
Well... I did summarize the gist of it in slightly fewer words in my second post on this thread.....! ;)
 
Thanks. I will have to read your post a few more times before it will all sink in, sonusman. Thanks for the explanation. And Blue Bear doesn't make me feel all that stupid, just sorta newbish, which I am. The whole Q thing is pretty new to me, and Eq has always been one of my weaker points in knowledge.

Cheers,

brutus

PS...sonusman...I just realized you are right across the river from me!!! Well aint that something. You ever feel the need to give a tour or have an observer, you let me know. Although I will not hold my breath on nothing. (I looked at your website, I swear I will not ask for advice on anything.) :)

Again, thanks for the info...
 
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Yo brutus, I noticed in a another thread that you were across the river from me too! :) Cool. We have yet another member who doesn't seem to come here much now, King Nothing, who is from the 'Couv'. I don't think he liked Vancouver much though and usually couldn't wait to get back to school (Washington State).

Anyway. LOL...that webpage needs some serious updating. Sort of reflects a certain attitude that I dont' care to express anymore. As well, it is just short on content right now.

I work out of Opal Studio in Portland. If you are wanting a tour, please feel free to give us a call and arrange a tour.

Ed
 
beware- newbie comment/question

quote - originally from sonusman
_________________________________

"Now I will agree the Alesis is crap..."
_________________________________


Just curious if this statement is based off of actual use of their EQ's (particularly the PEQ 450) or if it's based off of Alesis' past track record (particularly their 3630) ???

C/T
 
sonusman said:
I work out of Opal Studio in Portland. If you are wanting a tour, please feel free to give us a call and arrange a tour.

Ed

Thanks for the invite Ed. I may take you up on that in the near future.

Thanks again.

brutus
 
Ed - thanks so much for the detailed reply. I've posted on the same subject several times, and all I ever got was that graphic EQ's were evil. At some point in both of those threads, I posted the following question:

"
I hear from a lot of people that Graphic EQ's are the SPAWN OF SATAN, and yet.....it's the plug in parametrics which seem to leave large holes in the tone when I use them. I'm down with the whole "don't boost anything - only cut, and then only gently" philosophy. But let me ask a question which I hope isn't too overtly dense:

What's the big difference between a graphic and parametric EQ aside from the fact that you can program a parametric? I mean, if you have a 31-band graphic, your distance between "notches" is fixed at something like 1/3 octave, right? So if you cut 100 hz on a 31 band graphic, how is that different from cutting 100 hz on a parametric with the bandwidth set to .33 octave? I understand that you can program more specific cuts with a parametric, but I'm not sure that I'd want to try cutting a thinner slice than that anyway...at least, I haven't had any luck so far trying to do so. "



And in both cases, nobody ever answered and the thread just dried up. Now after reading your excellent post, I hope I understand a couple of things better, but I'm still confused about the "bell curve" part. If I'm getting what your saying correctly, a parametric EQ will naturally create a "bell curve" across the entire spectrum of boost/cut that you program it for, while with a graphic, if the spectrum you're aiming at has to cover several bands of the EQ, you'll actually be getting a bunch of little bell curves instead. Is this what you meant? If so, how does it affect the sound?

I'm very anxious to find out about this because I always seem to have a much easier and quicker time finding a sound on a graphic than on a parametric, and I'd love to have a graphic for "Quick" mixes that aren't going to be released as anything other than study of a rehearsal, etc. Thanks in advance. :)
 
Each "band" of eq has a "bell" type of curve. Mackie manuals have some excellent graphics to illustrate what they look like.

A graphic eq has a 1/3 octave bandwidth that this bell curve is applied to. Cutting/boosting two bands close to each other will not produce an overall "bell" curve at the output because of overlapping of frequencies being cut/boosted by both bands.

On most audio tracks, parametric eq's a suitable, because HOPEFULLY, you have tracked that instrument to sound pretty much the way you want it to sound, and you only might need a band or two of cut/boost to make it right. On PA systems, where you might have several frequencies that are not "even", the graphic eq works out better because it gives you more bands to adjust, but at the expense of the bandwidth being restricted to 1/3 octve (in the case of a 31 band 1/3 octave graphic eq) on each band. The parametric allows you to widen the bandwidth to your needs/taste but with usually far less bands at once that are adjustable.

Ed
 
Ahem......

Seeing Ed that you didnt explain what a paragrahic EQ is...I find your post incomplete.....

ahem..ahem....just clearing my throat.....

BB I would also add that I'm currently using a "Quad 8" EQ were the Q is very limited but the sound is simply amazing. It can beef up a kick or bass like nothing else I know although it is very limited in its accuracy of the Q......but I might also add...I have a Graphic laying around and I barely touch it.
 
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I think that alot of the prejudice against Graphic EQ's is that they simply have too much ability to screw up your sound. If used sparingly there is no real problem with them but if you are having to tweak every other band than you most likely should solve the problem at the root (tracking). Anytime you apply EQ there is also a bit of phase shift involved and when you really cut it up with a graphic the end result can be a thinner sounding track even with some EQ boosts added.

George Massenburg invented the parametric EQ (as far as I know) and if you look at some of his interviews on the net he can explain more about why he fealt the need for them. I think the biggest advantage to parametrics is that they do exactly what you tell them to do and leave the rest of your audio unaltered.

I read that Daniel Lanoise prefers parametrics so they are not completely shunned by the pros. Of course he is more of a musician/producer than an engineer.
 
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