takamine58
New member
I would like to copyright a song I have written but I don't have a clue what I need to do. Also, how do you go about getting your song to the right person?
Thanks!
Thanks!
what will I need to do to copyright my song?
- Thread starter takamine58
- Start date
This may be an old wive's tale...
... but I have an aunt that used to write her own songs back in the 50s and 60s and she said you could mail them to yourself through the regular USPS mail and have them copyrighted. I have no I dea what you have to do these days, aside from creating your own publishing company with ASCAP or BMI. I used to have some forms for that crap about 12 years ago, but I've since lost them. Also the band I wrote the songs with is equally kaput, so no big loss, I guess...
Sorry I couldn't really help. Maybe I shouldn't have replied at all...
Dave
... but I have an aunt that used to write her own songs back in the 50s and 60s and she said you could mail them to yourself through the regular USPS mail and have them copyrighted. I have no I dea what you have to do these days, aside from creating your own publishing company with ASCAP or BMI. I used to have some forms for that crap about 12 years ago, but I've since lost them. Also the band I wrote the songs with is equally kaput, so no big loss, I guess...
Sorry I couldn't really help. Maybe I shouldn't have replied at all...
Dave
Shockadelica
New member
"When is my work protected?
Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. "
This is taken directly from the US Copyright website located HERE
You can print off the forms you need to 'register' your copyright from the website HERE
Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. "
This is taken directly from the US Copyright website located HERE
You can print off the forms you need to 'register' your copyright from the website HERE
pianokey88
New member
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
Re: This may be an old wive's tale...
That mailing yourself an envelope thing is indeed an old wives tale. File the proper copyright forms with the copyright office. Also, you DO NOT have to be a member of ASCAP or BMI, or create your own publishing company in order to copyright your musical works. Any individual can do it.
Don't take any shortcuts, read the info on the copyright web site, fill out the forms, and pay the registration fee.
al_dave said:
That mailing yourself an envelope thing is indeed an old wives tale. File the proper copyright forms with the copyright office. Also, you DO NOT have to be a member of ASCAP or BMI, or create your own publishing company in order to copyright your musical works. Any individual can do it.
Don't take any shortcuts, read the info on the copyright web site, fill out the forms, and pay the registration fee.
takamine58
New member
Thanks to everyone for all the info. I really appreciate it.
How much does it cost to do this?
How much does it cost to do this?
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
All the info is on the copyright web site. I think it is $30 per copyright. However, you can file individually for each song, or group several together as a collection under one copyright. The important thing is that you follow the link to the web site and read it all.
takamine58
New member
I really appreciate the copyright info. Thanks to everyone.
There is a difference between copyrighting something and registering a copyright. Like someone pointed out, a copyright exists as soon as a work is in a fixed, tangible form. So, as soon as you make a recording of the song, or write out sheet music and lyrics, you have a copyright. As for the "mailing it to yourself" trick, the point of this is to establish a date. If you mail a sealed envelope containing a cassette with a recording of your song, it goes through the post office and is post marked on that date. As long as you don't unseal the envelope, you have legal evidence that you created a particular work at a particular time. As for registering with ASCAP or BMI, this allows you to register as the owner of the publishing rights of a song. As the owner of the publishing rights, you get the power to decide who records the initial version of a song (if they want to, obviously). It also allows you to collect any due royalties.
I recommend that anyone who is concerned with this aspect of the music biz read Donald Passman's book, "All You Need To Know About The Music Business". Its great, though sometimes a bit tedious, reading. His style really makes most topics fairly easy to grasp, and anyone seriously involved with music should know and be aware of those sorts of things.
I recommend that anyone who is concerned with this aspect of the music biz read Donald Passman's book, "All You Need To Know About The Music Business". Its great, though sometimes a bit tedious, reading. His style really makes most topics fairly easy to grasp, and anyone seriously involved with music should know and be aware of those sorts of things.
rjt
New member
Well, I guess in today's world the issue really isn't when you have the copyright, but who can prove they have the copyright. Anything short of registering it is just that..... short. You can register a bunch of songs as a collection, doesn't cost much, but it does take a long time. This is the highly recommended method if you value your work.
Take Care
Take Care
rjt
New member
This topic has been covered a number of times before. I thought I had read some pretty interesting discussions on it. Here is one of the best:
http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=6185&highlight=copyright
http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=6185&highlight=copyright
rjt said:
If you mail the material to yourself, it has your name on it, and therefore shows that you are the owner of the copyright. If someone wants to dispute that with you, fine...let the court decide. But if you have a federally date-stamped sealed envelope containing the material, things will be in your favor (unless, of course, you've blatantly ripped someone off...but if you do that, you're stupid anyway).
Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating this as a sole means of proof of copyright ownership by any means. You should definitely pursue the proper channels if you are in any way serious about your music. I'm just trying to point out that it does legally show proof of ownership and date, and is more than just "an old wives tale".
rjt
New member
I'm not sure if you looked at the thread that I linked to on the site. One challenge was to show any case that have ever been won with that method of "proof." Aside from the fact that dates etc can be change, envelopes opened and resealed, and the court costs of defending yourself if that is your proof, one reply on that thread pointed out that people can simply mail themselves unsealed envelopes. The post office may or may not seal them.... what does it cost someone trying to run a scam... send yourself 10 a week. Then when a song comes out, draw up the chord chart, record a tape or whatever and seal it in the envelope. The point in that thread is that it does not constitute legal proof for some of those reasons.
My point is that if it makes you feel better to send yourself a chord chart or tape fine. Doesn't help much if you do go to court, but you'll feel better. To me, it is like saying.... he must have been a drunk driver, there was a half-empty bottle of scotch at his house. I guess that's a type of evidence, just won't help you much. The danger is, you'll feel too good while you are grasping at straws and not do what it takes.... simply fill out the forms and pay the money to the copyright office.
Lots of people believe the mail it to yourself idea. I can't conclusively prove it doesn't work (you can never prove the null hypothesis, well Karl Popper tried... see where it got him). But I wouldn't even waste the money on the stamp.
Anyway, good discussion on this topic as usual.
Take Care
My point is that if it makes you feel better to send yourself a chord chart or tape fine. Doesn't help much if you do go to court, but you'll feel better. To me, it is like saying.... he must have been a drunk driver, there was a half-empty bottle of scotch at his house. I guess that's a type of evidence, just won't help you much. The danger is, you'll feel too good while you are grasping at straws and not do what it takes.... simply fill out the forms and pay the money to the copyright office.
Lots of people believe the mail it to yourself idea. I can't conclusively prove it doesn't work (you can never prove the null hypothesis, well Karl Popper tried... see where it got him). But I wouldn't even waste the money on the stamp.
Anyway, good discussion on this topic as usual.
Take Care
royharper3220
New member
you have to have the copyrighted work registered to sue for infringement. you can register after infringement, but there are benfits from registering first.
rjt
New member
Actually, I didn't miss that. I suppose this is where we agree to disagree. I believe that it does not legally show proof of ownership and date and is essentially useless. If it makes someone feel good to use it, fine. The danger is that they won't take the real step they need to prove their ownership.
Take Care
rjt
New member
Alright, spending far more time on this than anyone should, I did a web search. Most sites say that mailing something to yourself is useless. Some say that it is useless, but do it anyway. A couple say that it is good protection. Here are some that I (biased point of view) found most helpful:
http://www.copyrightauthority.com/poorman.htm
http://registermycopyright.com/poor.html
http://www.musicbizadvice.com/scam.htm
http://www.riger.com/articles/copyright.html
I doubt if anyone will every conclusively "win" with this debate. My advice, do what you are comfortable with.
Take Care
http://www.copyrightauthority.com/poorman.htm
http://registermycopyright.com/poor.html
http://www.musicbizadvice.com/scam.htm
http://www.riger.com/articles/copyright.html
I doubt if anyone will every conclusively "win" with this debate. My advice, do what you are comfortable with.
Take Care
Great comments so far!
I will chime in. Just for background, I just graduated from law school and am in the process of studying for the bar exam later this summer. My presumed speciality is Intellectual Property (copyrights, trademarks, etc), Entertainment law, and Civil Litigation. This is just for background and certainly is not intended to either be deemed as "legal advice". Nor do I intend to make my opinion any more valid than the other supported opinions that have already been expressed. I just want to make it clear that copyrights, particularly as they relate to music is very dear to me and has been my focus for the last few years of study.
Poor Man's Copyrights
There is a great deal of myth, lore and discussion about this method. The earlier comments about copyrights being granted inherently upon creation is spot on, in my opinion. Per the Copyright Act, you have copyright protection the moment your work is fixed in a tangible medium of expression (lyrics on a paper, music notation written out on paper, notation and/or lyrics on computer hard disk, the chalkboard, the song recorded on hard disk, tape, vinyl, digital tape ... you get the picture). Any tangible medium will suffice--a napkin even. Copyright protection is one issue. Registration of that copyrighted work is another.
Registration
There is only one (1) source that can register a work. It is the US Office of Copyrights. Not ASCAP, BMI, your songwriter's guild, etc. The only place to officially register your work is the US Copyright Office. The forms are fairly simply to fill; the fee is fairly small (currently $30). Registration of your work in the US Copyright Office creates a (legal) presumption that you are the owner of that work. This is bigger than you may imagine. The long and the short of it is that once you have a presumption in your favor, the opposing party has the burden of proof to disprove/refute your established legal presumption. So do yourself a favor and register your works. Plus, in most cases registration in the U.S. Copyright Office is a prerequisite to filing an infringement suit. And, without a registration you cannot get statutory damages (which for intentional infringement is up to $150,000 per infringement). So registration is a no-brainer.
What about this Poor Man's Copyright Thing? What does it get you?
The short answer is "it gets you nothing." You already have copyright protection inherently upon creation and fixation in a tangible medium. Mailing a tape of the song does nothing to upset that grant. Many lawyers say the poor man's copyright thing is pretty worthless ... and for good reason. The Poor Man's method may be, however, helpful in establishing a time of creation ... and presumably ownership. The large white elephant in the room, however, is that the method can be easily faked by taking a blank envelope, writing your own address on it, not sealing the envelope. When it arrives you put anything you want in it--at whatever date you want. Can the poor man's stuff be used in court? Yes, but not likely as substantive evidence (evidence attesting to be what it claims to be).
For example, you're in court trying to testify that you created Song X on XYZ date. You attempt to offer the sealed envelope as such proof. As strange as it sounds the mailed tape may not come in as direct evidence. It is "hearsay" ... an out of court statement offered for the truth of the matter asserted. There are exceptions to the hearsay rule, but in my opinion no exceptions apply to the above scenario. (perhaps the business records exception... but it's a stretch). The tape may come in, not as substantive evidence, but to impeach your testimony if you testify otherwise... or you may use the tape as 'non-hearsay' to refute a claim that you are lying about your stated date of creation... but the sealed tape, with all its previously stated flaws, likely will not come in as direct evidence to prove your date of creation... Though it may be helpful to you, personally, as a stamped date to jog your memory as to when the work was created.
What Evidence Is Likely to Come Into Court?
Testimony... by a living, breathing person who can attest to your date of creation--yourself included. (If pretrial, an affidavit from that living, breathing person). You can use the poor man's method as a way to date stamp the creation ... but you can do this with a simple note signed by both you and your witness... Heck you can even notarize it if you want. But, be warned that the notarization only attests to your identification. It does not go to the 'truth' of the document's assertions. So in the end, if you have an infringement suit, you will still have to show that you, indeed created the work in question. You will still have to offer evidence, usually by witnesses agreeing with that creation date. You will still have to show that the alleged infringer had access to the work to copy it. These are factual issues that (usually) a jury will decide, and as such they depend on your credibility as a witness and the strength of your evidence and presentation (i.e. your lawyer's skills).
What do you do About this Poor Man's Thing?
If you want to do it, be my guest. At worst, it will establish a date of creation to jog your memory, in the event you have to testify as a witness or sign an affidavit. However, don't fool yourself into believing that the Poor Man's method actually established a copyright.
Incidentally, I have done several searches in state and federal caselaw databases and I have yet to find any case that involved the use of such evidence. It appears not to exist... which I can only imagine helps the myth grow.
Do yourself a favor and register your work as soon as you can afford the $30 fee. If it's too high a price for one copyright, put several songs together as a "compilation" and register the compilation. Compilations make searching the copyright office for a single song title a bit more difficult, but the copyright protection is there all the same as if the work were registered individually. Have a witness or two or three verify your date of creation. Sign a simple document if you care. Personally, I think the Poor Man's method is not particularly useful, because you can create a date stamp in other ways (notarized document, witnessed document, date stamp on a hard drive or CD, etc). If you want to do it, it certainly does not hurt. But, it will not be a substitute for a registered copyright; it is no more proof of ownership of the copyright that without it; you have copyright protection inherently without it; and it has the tendency to make you complacently believe that it has greater value than it is really worth.
Just my 56 cents.
E-
I will chime in. Just for background, I just graduated from law school and am in the process of studying for the bar exam later this summer. My presumed speciality is Intellectual Property (copyrights, trademarks, etc), Entertainment law, and Civil Litigation. This is just for background and certainly is not intended to either be deemed as "legal advice". Nor do I intend to make my opinion any more valid than the other supported opinions that have already been expressed. I just want to make it clear that copyrights, particularly as they relate to music is very dear to me and has been my focus for the last few years of study.
Poor Man's Copyrights
There is a great deal of myth, lore and discussion about this method. The earlier comments about copyrights being granted inherently upon creation is spot on, in my opinion. Per the Copyright Act, you have copyright protection the moment your work is fixed in a tangible medium of expression (lyrics on a paper, music notation written out on paper, notation and/or lyrics on computer hard disk, the chalkboard, the song recorded on hard disk, tape, vinyl, digital tape ... you get the picture). Any tangible medium will suffice--a napkin even. Copyright protection is one issue. Registration of that copyrighted work is another.
Registration
There is only one (1) source that can register a work. It is the US Office of Copyrights. Not ASCAP, BMI, your songwriter's guild, etc. The only place to officially register your work is the US Copyright Office. The forms are fairly simply to fill; the fee is fairly small (currently $30). Registration of your work in the US Copyright Office creates a (legal) presumption that you are the owner of that work. This is bigger than you may imagine. The long and the short of it is that once you have a presumption in your favor, the opposing party has the burden of proof to disprove/refute your established legal presumption. So do yourself a favor and register your works. Plus, in most cases registration in the U.S. Copyright Office is a prerequisite to filing an infringement suit. And, without a registration you cannot get statutory damages (which for intentional infringement is up to $150,000 per infringement). So registration is a no-brainer.
What about this Poor Man's Copyright Thing? What does it get you?
The short answer is "it gets you nothing." You already have copyright protection inherently upon creation and fixation in a tangible medium. Mailing a tape of the song does nothing to upset that grant. Many lawyers say the poor man's copyright thing is pretty worthless ... and for good reason. The Poor Man's method may be, however, helpful in establishing a time of creation ... and presumably ownership. The large white elephant in the room, however, is that the method can be easily faked by taking a blank envelope, writing your own address on it, not sealing the envelope. When it arrives you put anything you want in it--at whatever date you want. Can the poor man's stuff be used in court? Yes, but not likely as substantive evidence (evidence attesting to be what it claims to be).
For example, you're in court trying to testify that you created Song X on XYZ date. You attempt to offer the sealed envelope as such proof. As strange as it sounds the mailed tape may not come in as direct evidence. It is "hearsay" ... an out of court statement offered for the truth of the matter asserted. There are exceptions to the hearsay rule, but in my opinion no exceptions apply to the above scenario. (perhaps the business records exception... but it's a stretch). The tape may come in, not as substantive evidence, but to impeach your testimony if you testify otherwise... or you may use the tape as 'non-hearsay' to refute a claim that you are lying about your stated date of creation... but the sealed tape, with all its previously stated flaws, likely will not come in as direct evidence to prove your date of creation... Though it may be helpful to you, personally, as a stamped date to jog your memory as to when the work was created.
What Evidence Is Likely to Come Into Court?
Testimony... by a living, breathing person who can attest to your date of creation--yourself included. (If pretrial, an affidavit from that living, breathing person). You can use the poor man's method as a way to date stamp the creation ... but you can do this with a simple note signed by both you and your witness... Heck you can even notarize it if you want. But, be warned that the notarization only attests to your identification. It does not go to the 'truth' of the document's assertions. So in the end, if you have an infringement suit, you will still have to show that you, indeed created the work in question. You will still have to offer evidence, usually by witnesses agreeing with that creation date. You will still have to show that the alleged infringer had access to the work to copy it. These are factual issues that (usually) a jury will decide, and as such they depend on your credibility as a witness and the strength of your evidence and presentation (i.e. your lawyer's skills).
What do you do About this Poor Man's Thing?
If you want to do it, be my guest. At worst, it will establish a date of creation to jog your memory, in the event you have to testify as a witness or sign an affidavit. However, don't fool yourself into believing that the Poor Man's method actually established a copyright.
Incidentally, I have done several searches in state and federal caselaw databases and I have yet to find any case that involved the use of such evidence. It appears not to exist... which I can only imagine helps the myth grow.
Do yourself a favor and register your work as soon as you can afford the $30 fee. If it's too high a price for one copyright, put several songs together as a "compilation" and register the compilation. Compilations make searching the copyright office for a single song title a bit more difficult, but the copyright protection is there all the same as if the work were registered individually. Have a witness or two or three verify your date of creation. Sign a simple document if you care. Personally, I think the Poor Man's method is not particularly useful, because you can create a date stamp in other ways (notarized document, witnessed document, date stamp on a hard drive or CD, etc). If you want to do it, it certainly does not hurt. But, it will not be a substitute for a registered copyright; it is no more proof of ownership of the copyright that without it; you have copyright protection inherently without it; and it has the tendency to make you complacently believe that it has greater value than it is really worth.
Just my 56 cents.
E-
Last edited: