Acoustic buying advice needed

Checking back in for the next chapter in the saga...I've been doing some shopping. I haven't decided yet but so far I'm leaning toward the Taylor 410, even though it's at the upper end of what I'm willing to spend. At first I wanted to stick with Martin, but the 410 really sings! I mean the sound really carries. I can see what people say about the sparkle. The sound at the 17th fret was good, too. And the difference between Taylors and Martins is very big. By comparison, Martins sound duller. Buts that not a fair word to use. They have a more intimate and "woody" kind of sound. I hope that my untrained ear is not missing something and that I'm not being fooled by the brightness of the 410. Maybe the complexity of tone is not there. If a Martin is a fine wine, is the Taylor a wine cooler? I loved the ebony fretboard, even though I thought the Taylor was a little *less* easy on the fingers. I'm not partial to the satin finish; I'd prefer gloss.

I can see that one guitar is not going to be enough. I would want the Taylor for that bright strummin' acoustic sound you might hear in an REO Speedwagon song. But I also want the intimate Martin sound for doing Don McLean and Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young stuff. If I get the 410, I can see myself also going out and getting a Martin D-1 or D-16 in a year or so just to get that sound.

Strangely, to my ears all the Martins sounded rather similar, from the lowest priced up to the HD-28 ( I think around $1500?). I also compared a Taylor 310 with the 410. The 410 has a bigger, more open sound. But some of that may have been the strings. I found a big difference between old and new strings, making it pretty much impossible to assess the sound of some guitars. I know people have suggested other brands besides these two. It's not that I've tried them and ruled them out. In some cases they're just not available in the stores near me. Perhaps I'm just biased to certain names.

One thing I'm concerned about is the price. The store that has the 410 tends to have higher prices on most things. They want $1149 for the 410. I think it would probably be cheaper at Guitar Center. However, even though GC has several Taylors, they do NOT carry the 410. They told me the 414 (Grand Auditorium) was a bigger seller. Anyway, I wonder if $1149 is a fair price.

Jim
 
You're doin' it right, pal. And you're finding out that there are a whole lot of different paths to excellence. Don't be swayed by mere brand loyalty; I just lost it on another thread because of a foodfight that erupted there over that stuff. AACK!

Martin? Taylor? How can you lose? Not a matter of "fine wine" v. "wine cooler" at all. One is like an Australian Cabernet / Shiraz, the other like a Spanish Rioja. Either one is really good with a rare steak.

P.S. See what I mean about the string thing? Keep us posted!
 
JimH: $1149 for a Taylor 410 is too much, unless it's a Cutaway with Fishman electronics. If you want a Taylor, I recommend buying it from Buffalo Bros. vintage Guitars www.buffalobrosguitars.com. Bob sells the standard Taylor 410 for $895 new.

I have dealt with Bob for 15 years, and would recommend him to anyone wanting to purchase a good-great acoustic. He also sells used instruments. He and his only sales person, Gary Wolod, are acoustic guitar experts, and they are honest. They also have a luthier/restoration expert named Bill Meyer (semi-famous for his JackStraw 12-strings). Bill is an authorized repair agent for Martin, Santa Cruz, Larrivee, Ehlers, among others.

Buffalo Bros. offers a 3-day "Right of Refusal" on all guitars, so you will not get stuck with something you don't want. Shipping runs about $50, but you won't have to pay any sales tax because they're in California.

Buffalo Bros. also offers 100% lifetime guarantee on used instruments and 100% trade-in value for all instruments (provided they are in basically the same condition with normal wear). I have exercised this option my self. It allows you to gradually move up to nicer guitars.

Do yourself a favor and at least check out the website. By the way, I am in no way affiliated with or related to Buffalo Bros.

Tom Duke
 
Uh-oh!

Did anyone else notice the quote:

"I can see that one guitar is not going to be enough."

It's the same old story - once they start experimenting with this stuff, before you know it they're hooked on the hard stuff. All these youngsters don't know how addictive it is - give them all a cold shower, I say.
Next thing you know, he'll be making the choice between new strings and food - and he'll be buying the new strings.


Ain't life great?

(c:]

foo
 
I warned him (April 3 post) but he had to go and try them out anyway. Now lookee what happened. He's one of us! God help him :D
 
You're in luck my friend... I have just gone through the living hell that is finding a nice new guitar, getting the best sound, for the best value, and all that crap that you're dealing with right now... and guess what I came out with... A Taylor 414CE (cutaway, w/fishman pickup)
Now, you were saying that you saw a 410 for about $1149... well I hope that was with a pick-up, maybe a cutaway too, and that the price included the case... otherwise you weren't getting a very good deal... I got the 414CE with the deluxe Taylor hardshell case for $1199... it was a pretty good deal... I might have been able to run around a little more to see if that was the best I could do... but I really just wanted the guitar RIGHT THEN :o)

Anyway, I also started out by looking at the 410...(the CE model, because I wanted the cutaway and the pick-up) I bought one because it had a nice, full sound... I liked the look... and I liked the African wood that they use on the body (ovangkol, or some name like that) :o) and heck, it was a Taylor... (I thouroughly concur with the previous praise given this brand) It had the best sound for the money of all the guitars I had played... and trust me, I went around playin' more guitars than you can imagine for months...
But like these guys have already told you, you need to have it set up after you buy it,.. unfortunately, being the impatient person that I am, I just let the store I bought it from, Guitar Center, send it out to get set-up... I thought it would be quicker... bad move... I didn't see it for 3 and a half weeks... so I went back in and griped about how this was much too long so they sent me up to their sister store in the St. Louis area to get a replacement, and I was just gonna get another 410.. BUT it ends up that they had a 414CE that had just come in... still yet untouched by any of those psychos who go into the high-end acoustic room and pound around like madmen on guitars that cost more than the cars they drive.. :)
Anyway,..I tried it... and it was beautiful... not only did it sound better than the 410, but I tried it through the acoustic amp they had set up there, and I could swear that the pick-up sound quality was better than the 410...even though it's the same pick-up, but whatever..it might have just been my imagination... and I also think that the grand auditorium body style just plain looks better than the dreadnaught style of the 410... then they told me that it was the SAME PRICE... so I was out of there before they could change their minds... trust me... if you're thinking of going with the 410... go for the 414.. and since you've already mentioned that you have a guitar center near you... go in and ask for a 414CE with the case for $1199 and they should do it... now since you've said you don't really need a acoustic/elec. you can get it without the pick-up and that'll shave a couple hundred off the price..

I know when this post started, you were going for a $500-$1000 range entry level.. but doesn't suck that once you've played something like a Taylor, you can't imagine going to some $500 Takamine... :) This wasn't even my first guitar... this was my "step up",.. so I guarantee, this would be a great first guitar for anyone...

Just to parrot some previous advice... don't skimp on the strings... The Elixirs that Taylor puts on their guitars and recommends for them, are good strings... (just a little pricey) I put a mediocre pair of strings on the same guitar and couldn't believe how much sound quality I lost... and definitely get it set up... that'll be another $70-$90 but it's worth it... they'll custom set the action, oil it all up, mill the frets if needed, make sure the tonation is just right... and remember... DON'T LET GUITAR CENTER DO IT FOR YOU.... :)


WATYF

P.S. I also looked at Larrivee's and I agree with those who said they're a great buy for the money... those D0-2's are pretty good little guitars for the price.. (570 bucks for an acous/elec) much better than the entry level Martin "DXM" for about the same price...
 
I tried the Simon & Patrick guitars over the weekend. It has fine craftmanship and plays beautifully. Compared to a Taylor, I prefered the Simon & Patrick because it's warmer and more 'woody' (if there's such a word) and that works for me. Now its just to get the money to buy one ! :-)
 
Personal preferences after many years , Mahogany and Maple make wonderful necks , but for bodies stick to Rosewood . Rosewood gives you more even volumes from lows to highs . Mahogany bodies in particular have boomieness at certain frequencies and with certain strings (usually old ones ) that will require corrective EQing to record properly . Also strings make a world of difference , try everything and trust your ears . I agree with some of the other posts about Alvarez guitars , cheaper and as good as some of the Big Boys.They also have some Rosewood bodies and Jacaranda which is a member of the rosewood family .
 
Ok guys, I've decided. I've just ordered a Taylor 410. Tom, I took your suggestion and I called up Buffalo Bros. And guess what? The price was not $895, it was lower! So I took it. (But I DO have to pay tax since I'm in CA) Thanks. You saved me some bucks. The only thing I worry about is that I don't get to try the exact guitar I'm buying. But Taylor is supposed to be pretty consistent.

Why the Taylor? Well first I have to say I didn't go around for weeks trying every guitar on Earth. But of those I did try, the 410 grabbed me the most. I couldn't resist the great sustain and the clarity. When I strum a chord, all the strings seem to blend together so nicely. And the intonation stays excellent all the way up the neck. My only criticism of the 410 is that the bottom end is thin. The lower strings don't have the warmth of some other guitars. But nevertheless, I couldn't resist the sparkle. WATYF, yes, the 414 sounded just as nice to me, but I'm not crazy about the body shape. I also compared the 410 to a 510, but the 410 was better. But again, I think it was probably because the 510 had older strings. Only one store carried Larivee, and for some reason they had none between the prices of $549 and about $2000, so I didn't get to try any of those in the price range I would have liked.

So now, should I think about getting it set up? Why would I want to do that? I mean, what if I have no complaints about the action? Then what would be the value in getting it set up? What all is included in the process? And, why doesn't a new guitar already come in its best condition? Why does it need more work?

Oh yeah, and thanks for all the help. This thread is a wealth of information and probably should get archived somewhere.

Jim


[This message has been edited by JimH (edited 04-19-2000).]
 
Good work! Even if you did get a Taylor ;). You will not regret it. As to setups, let this one have a little time. They are generally shipped set up; your dealer may be doing its own thing. Particularly if you are getting back your chops, don't do anything drastic until you have a real sense of what you want. That process will probably involve you getting familiar with the instrument, whereupon you won't WANT it any different. The setup and feel becomes personal to you. Let it happen.

Can a pro shop improve a setup? Generally, yes. Should you do it? Well, why?

Keep a humidifier of some kind in the case and never let the instrument get too dry. Don't let it freeze.

NEVER LEAVE IT IN A HOT CAR!!! That can absolutely ruin the instrument beyond repair in two hours. Period.

Change strings more often than you need, and enjoy this beautiful thing!
 
Hey man,.. to each his own... :) I'm sure you'll love it... but don't get it set up right away... A guitar needs to acclamate to it's environment before you go getting it set-up... so just break it in for at least 2 weeks to a month... and then it will have adjusted to your climate (temp, humidity) and then you can get it set up... If you don't think it's a huge deal to you,.. then you don't have to,.. I haven't done mine yet, but I will... but just so you know.. the set-up out of the factory is NOT the best set-up that a guitar can get... but it's not a "bad" set-up either (except for some occasions) so it's just something to consider... But definitely get the humidifier... even if it's just one of the "damp-it's" that you put in the guitar.. (p.s. They say to use that plastic sound hole cover, but don't use that. That way it humidifies the whole guitar.) It just takes a little more attention to take care of a guitar like that, but you definitely get your money's worth out of it.

WATYF
 
between $500-1000, i'd stay with guild. martins are good acoustics also, but i think that guild takes the cake. i'd take my dce1 over any larivee anyday. the playability is great for the beginning guitarist as well as a veteran. but the sound is phenominal.
 
Hey,
Takamine guitars rule. 'Nuff said there. I've got one and wouldn't trade it for any other kind. They've got the most amazing tone. Can't go wrong with 'em...good luck...

***Justin***
 
Jim, I'm glad you got your guitar. You will not be sorry you bought a Taylor, and you will be glad you bought it from Buffalo Bros if you ever decide to trade up. I put my reputation on the line recommending Buffalo Bros. If you are not 100% satisfied with your purchase, let me know.
 
Heh heh, Tom, don't worry. I won't hold you responsible for Buff Bros. :) My choice.

But I do have a possible problem. I received the guitar a couple of days ago. The action is kind of high, making it hard to play further up the neck. I don't have any good measuring tool, but I discovered that I can *just* fit a 3-1/2 inch floppy disk between the 12th fret and the string. I don't know how thick a floppy is, but that's how high the action is.

It seemed to me that the 410 I played in my local store didn't have such high action. So today I went back to the store to check it out and sure enough it was significantly better. So I wonder if I can get mine adjusted to be better. I don't know that I can complain to Buff Bros. or Taylor about it because the guitar really isn't defective. It just isn't as good as another 410. Other than the high action, it's fine. (I also want to say it's a tad tougher to play, but right now I'm going through that awful period of toughening up my fingertips. So that's probably it.)

Should I try to adjust it myself? It came with a wrench and a page of directions on how to adjust it. Or is it worth having a technician do it?

Oh yeah, one more thing. The serial number of my guitar suggests that it was made in January of 1999. Quite a while ago. The serial number of the one in the store with the good action looked to be from November of 1999. I don't know if that means anything.

Jim
 
If the action is distractingly high, there are a number of things that can be done. The first thing is to call the retailer and talk with somebody there. You may be within a small time limited window - "100 % satisfaction" that operates independently of a warranty claim. Make the call and make notes of the conversation, when you called, who you spoke with, etc.

You may find that the simplest thing for everyone is for the retailer to refer you to a Taylor approved technician, and that they will pay for the work (or pass it through to Taylor). I wouldn't be timid here, nor would I mess with it myself if I had made the purchase. That's why you bought it new. So use your UCC warranty leverage to get somebody's attention. You can be firm and reasonable at the same time, and the solution can't be rocket science.
 
That is good advice from Treeline. I was going to tell you before you bought it to instruct Buffalo Bros to setup the guitar for you before it shipped. Whatever you do, do not attempt to adjust the neck yourself. The action can be lowered by sanding down the saddle, but I'd take Treeline's advice. Call Buffalo Bros and have a local authorized Taylor shop bill them for the cost of a setup.
 
Thank again, guys. After talking to Buffalo Bros. I realized that it's not a big deal. I can do it myself. But perhaps I'll take it somewhere to have it done anyway. It shouldn't cost more than $10 or so. Gary says they check the action before they send guitars out, and they set it to about medium-low. Though it's a bit too high for my preference. I'm not sure what you mean about sanding the saddle. It should just be a truss rod adjustment.
 
The saddle is the thin strip of plastic in the bridge that the strings ride on. The first thing that Bill Meyer at Buffalo Bros will look to do when lowering a guitar's action is to reduce the height of the saddle. He measures the string action at the twelfth fret to see how much lower the string can go before buzzing. He told me the standard minimum millimeter height once but I forgot.

I used to buy several saddles at once to adjust my own string action. I would keep sanding a saddle down a little at a time until the strings started to buzz. Then I would use that saddle as a template for the next one, which I would sand down almost but not as far as the template. It was tedious work, but I was able to adjust my action considerably. If you sand too far, start again with a new saddle. Do not try to fix it by shimming up the saddle with a thin strip of paper or plastic. Doing this will rob tone, volume, and sustain from your guitar.

Again, I suggest you do not adjust you truss rod yourself. Have a pro repair person do it and only if it's absolutely necessary.
 
I agree. A truss rod adjustment will affect the string height, but for reasons that may not be to your advantage. It should not be used to set action, unless its done in conjunction with a few other things that a good tech will scope out. Part of the problem with fooling with the truss rod is that there are no fine adjustments. A little change here means a big change there. The other thing is that an adjustment of the rod messes with the whole neck geometry, and you seem to have a simpler task at hand.

A tech can look at the neck, determine how the frets were honed in the first place, (so anything he does will use that work as a reference) calculate whether (and how much) to lower the saddle, watch the nut height so he doesn't inadvertantly create buzzing, and THEN adjust the truss rod if needed. All in about twenty minutes. And he (or she) may do it in the reverse order. My point is that he will look at a number of things at once, each of which will interact.

Don't try this at home! (Well, at leasat until you've spent some time with guitars and begin to understand the physics of them. Trust me, it happens by osmosis...)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top