Why is the volume of other tracks so much higher then mine?

[Steenamaroo]

I agree with Greg and RAMI here.
If you're someone who wants your music to be played in a commercial context, it has to fit in.
If a commercial context isn't on your mind then absolutely just worry about quality and dynamics and everything else.

Robus, You're right in that the goal if mixing is to get a good mix, but I guess you're preparing your mixes for us, yourself, and maybe friends?
In that case, sure, your mix doesn't need to compete with commercial stuff in terms of volume. No need to compromise it then.

 

[RAMI]

mixing is to get a good mix

I agree. When I mix, I don't have "Shmastering" or volume in mind at all. I mix for a good mix. My finished mixes peak at about -12 and average about -20RMS or something like that. Really low. I mix to mix. The "Mastering" (which I always put in quotations because I realize it's not real mastering that I'm doing) is a totally separate process.

I have never in my life put anything on my master bus while mixing. I export my low-volume, finished mix into a new project and treat my "Shmastering" as a completely separate process.

 

[Robus]

The goal of mixing is to get a good mix. It's not to produce a track with a "competitive" volume level. Let that be a separate mastering process.

My mixes tend to be soft too. At this stage I'd rather let the listener turn up the volume than muck up all the work I've done in mixing by a ham-fisted attempted to "master" at the same time.

I did not say that mastering is unnecessary. It is something to do with a finished mix. Thank you for your attention.

I agree. When I mix, I don't have "Shmastering" or volume in mind at all. I mix for a good mix.

Good, we agree.

 

[RAMI]

EDIT:

Actually.....I don't even have the energy or desire to continue this conversation. So, I'll just edit my comment and bow out. I made my point. The rest of you...knock yourselves out doing what you do. I just want everyone to be happy.

 

[Robus]

"Shmastering" is something you hear all the time. The tell-tale signs are easy to recognize. Levels all over the place, no dynamics, compression artifacts, harsh midrange, tinny highs, no dynamics, overly loud. It is epidemic in home recording.

It happens when someone starts slapping limiters and compressors on the master bus as a matter of course, before the mix is even complete. At that point, they can no longer hear the effect of their mixing decisions in the individual tracks, because whatever adjustments they are making to EQ or levels are immediately amplified, diminished, squashed or negated by the plugins on the master bus.

I'm sure there are experts who can avoid this. For myself and others on a home recording forum, I would suggest a simple workaround: Mix your song. Get a good mix. Then take your finished mix and master it.

 

[jimmys69]

I feel I should interject here...

I tend to record projects with a bit of limiting on the 2 bus as I record. But I suppose there is a bit of time and experience with how I work that makes me find that it works or me.

Not saying that is ideal for anyone..

There should be some kind of sticky that says 'when you know why your shit is not loud enough, then you will already know how to make it so'

It really comes down to the mix before the mastering. A mastering limiter can get you in the ballpark, but there are way more important things to a final 'mastered' mix than just volume of the track.

And in my experience a great limiter will go a long way. Sorry but shit limiters are just shitty IMO.

The stock Cubase Limiter makes me want to puke, but the latency of the plug is so minimal, I use it for tracking vocals. Low latency of the plug allows me to record vocals without latency.

FabFilter Pro-L is my go-to limiter for 'home mastering', but again I must say that I never trust myself for final mastering after mixing decisions.


I am curious here. I monitor via Cubase and my UR 824 interfaces.

I really have never had an issue with either my latency with input.



Final point: Cute little girl just made it clear who the boss is.


Laytzzz!

 

[gecko zzed]

But most people that home record wear all of the production hats, so getting familiar with basic master compression/limiting for punch and loudness isn't a bad thing.

For me, mastering is a distinct and separate process from mixing, and I still operate that way, but I note that for many recordists, the distinction is less well-defined, and that many elements of mastering are being incorporated into the mixing stage, e.g. compressors, limiters and other stuff being but on the master output. So when listening to mixes, you are listening to the mix and what effect mastering stuff is having on it. There are benefits in doing this, because your mixing decisions are informed by how they are influenced by what's on the master bus.

I agree with others that a low-volume exquisite mix is really annoying when sandwiched in playlist between two loud tracks, and that dealing with this is beneficial.

I still keep mastering separate from mixing. That's because I mix one song at a time, and fater doing a bunch of these, I master them together so that their levels are consistent and cohesive.

 

[Dicus]

Thanks for all the tips and advice! I am now diving into the world of limiters...

 

[calimoose]

Yes and no. Obviously creating a good mix is critical. But most people that home record wear all of the production hats, so getting familiar with basic master compression/limiting for punch and loudness isn't a bad thing. You don't have to recreate the remix of "Raw Power", but relying or demanding that people "turn it up" is myopic and defeatist. What happens next? Suppose you write something worth listening to and you shun all "mastering" processes (I use that term loosely here) to preserve the precious dynamics. The listener will have to turn his playback device back down for the next song on their playlist. How annoying is that? Annoying enough that they'll skip your song next time or remove it entirely.

The better option is to make a good mix, and learn how to massage it for some loudness without murdering it.

I agree with Greg here. I have a couple mixes that I slam a brickwall limiter on, not because it sounds great, but because in my everyday life, whether I'm at the gym or on the metro or whatever, I don't want to worry about changing volume while listening. I don't mind doing it if the volume differential isn't astronomical, but unfortunately a good mix is usually at a much lower volume than a professionally recorded, mixed and mastered song.

Usually on my phone I'll have some of my songs with "shmastering" applied, but obviously keep the original mix to either try and work on myself or send to someone much better at mastering than myself (i.e. any living human being).

Unless it's only you that's listening to your mix, then most everyday listeners who don't know a thing about mixing and mastering would take an equal volume song with a limiter and artifacts galore over a well-mixed song that's at a much lower volume. Everyday listeners will think something's wrong with the song if it's at such a low volume, regardless of how magnificent the mix may be.

On a side note, this thread makes me happy. I appreciate all you dudes actually discussing the topic at hand without declaring war. You all have a lot to bring to the forum and much can be learned from all of you. Thanks.

 

[Greg_L]

For me, mastering is a distinct and separate process from mixing, and I still operate that way, but I note that for many recordists, the distinction is less well-defined, and that many elements of mastering are being incorporated into the mixing stage, e.g. compressors, limiters and other stuff being but on the master output. So when listening to mixes, you are listening to the mix and what effect mastering stuff is having on it. There are benefits in doing this, because your mixing decisions are informed by how they are influenced by what's on the master bus.

I agree with others that a low-volume exquisite mix is really annoying when sandwiched in playlist between two loud tracks, and that dealing with this is beneficial.

I still keep mastering separate from mixing. That's because I mix one song at a time, and fater doing a bunch of these, I master them together so that their levels are consistent and cohesive.

Right, I do the same. For my own stuff, I mix and then half-ass "master" a song at a time. I do any post-mix loud smashing completely separate from the mixing project. I will often keep a basic limiter ready-to-go on the master bus of the mix project, but it's not on. I only flick it on occasionally to see how the general mix is holding up to master bus compression at that stage. I do not mix through the limiter. Like Rami, I bounce out a raw mix, bring it into a separate project, and "master" the stereo mix as I see fit. This isn't really mastering, but it is what it is. It's fine for general listening or reference listening.

When it comes time to put it all together for an album, I deal with only un-processed low RMS raw mixes and treat them all to the same mastering processes. This is a completely separate project. I'm not a mastering engineer, I don't have pro mastering equipment, but I can make an album flow and sound cohesive, and be loud enough to not be out of place on a playlist. For my own stuff and the people I record, no one's ever unhappy. It always sounds good to me.

I like a loud mix....within reason. I have no problem with some loudness limiting. A good mix can take it.

 

[andrushkiwt]

I bounce out a raw mix, bring it into a separate project, and "master" the stereo mix as I see fit.

My DAW, Studio One Pro, has a separate mastering suite. I thought that was how all/most of the DAW's worked until I noticed people are saying they do it all in the same session. In S1, you insert your wav then there's a panel for inserts, phase meters, level meters, etc... and a section to "apply to all" or "apply to track", since you are able to insert multiple tracks (album) into the same mastering suite.

On the topic, Cali said something that stuck out to me - listeners will think there's something wrong with a quiet track. I agree that's the case. There's a perceived quality that comes with loudness. Unfortunately.

 

[jkuehlin]

Seriously.

The whole "People can just turn it up" sounds good on paper, but it's stupid. It's not so much that people can't turn it up. It's the remembering to turn it down for the next tune. I guarantee you that someone wearing headphones that cranks up your song because it's lower than every other song on his playlist will delete your song the first time he blows his ears out because the next tune was normal volume and almost destroyed his ear drums because he had to turn up your song.

There's also the people that listen to music while doing, you know, every day stuff like working out, doing the dishes, cooking, cleaning. If your song is too low while they're in the other room doing their own thing, they're going to skip or delete it. Especially after the first time they crank it up and have to sprint back to the living room and turn down the next song because it almost exploded their speakers.

Sorry, the whole "Just turn it up" just isn't realistic.

Agree. It has to do with consumer expectations.

 

[joeroot9357]

Thanks for the help shown here as same volume tracks trouble were making me frustated

 

[b.toast]

Hi there. A plugin that I've been using in my budget home studio is the W1 Limiter. It's a free clone of Waves L1 and generally does a pretty good job of limiting your tracks without leaving artifacts.

 

[robgreen]

Honestly, my mixes are not "commercial level" loud, but I get about 500 plays a week overall on all my released stuff...so they gotta turn it up a bit.

Ok, this caught my eye. You really getting around 500 plays per week on your music BroKen? I didn't think anyone on this site would be getting anywhere near this level of clicks - that's like 26,000 plays per year!

I'd think you would need to be gigging regularly, have a strong following or be loading up covers of the latest adele song or something on youtube to be getting this kind of level of sustained interest. Clicking on your soundcloud just now, most of your songs have around 100 plays in total since uploading.

I'm not trying to call you out here, just intrigued as to how this is the case if correct?

 

[BroKen_H]

Well, Soundcloud shows 150 (has been over 300) plays this week when I just checked. Plus ReverbNation/Facebook @ 196. Those are the two I bother to track. That doesn't leave a lot to get to 500....which admittedly was a guess.Spotify, iTunes, Zune, etc (don't know stats there), but I'd like to think all the other sites combined are getting some plays. So maybe revise to 350+ per week. But I'm also noticing when I listened on Spotify yesterday that my stuff really doesn't need turned up with most CCM (could be they have some auto leveling going on there--which would further demonstrate the point of my post).

 

[Farview]

I do believe that all the popular streaming sites have some sort of auto-levelling. I know for a fact that youtube does.

It's only when someone downloads the song and puts it on their ipod that the volume will become an issue.

There are some that think that since the streaming outlets are making everything the same volume, that means that people will stop trying g to make their stuff louder than everyone else's. That might be optimistic, given the fact that not many people know about the auto-levelling.

 

[robgreen]

Well, Soundcloud shows 150 (has been over 300) plays this week when I just checked. Plus ReverbNation/Facebook @ 196. Those are the two I bother to track. That doesn't leave a lot to get to 500....which admittedly was a guess.Spotify, iTunes, Zune, etc (don't know stats there), but I'd like to think all the other sites combined are getting some plays. So maybe revise to 350+ per week. But I'm also noticing when I listened on Spotify yesterday that my stuff really doesn't need turned up with most CCM (could be they have some auto leveling going on there--which would further demonstrate the point of my post).

Thanks for replying BH. As I say I wasn't trying to hold you to account, just interested in how you got there & how a small number of 'followers' on soundcloud at least would generate so many plays.

Covers seem to get a lot more plays than originals - nobody seems to be trawling soundcloud for the next new thing, just people in their bedrooms playing versions of songs they already know. You any idea what's generating that traffic to your page? You directing people via the facebook link? Are folks maybe searching on a Christian rock type tag or through the soundcloud groups? Or are those 29 followers listening to your stuff religiously (if you excuse the pun) each week? Or is it having some kind of presence across a few platforms?

I don't mean these questions in a hostile way, just curious. Seems like you're getting your music across somehow and those numbers look impressive

 

[RAMI]

Well, Soundcloud shows 150 (has been over 300) plays this week when I just checked. Plus ReverbNation/Facebook @ 196. Those are the two I bother to track. That doesn't leave a lot to get to 500....which admittedly was a guess.Spotify, iTunes, Zune, etc (don't know stats there), but I'd like to think all the other sites combined are getting some plays. So maybe revise to 350+ per week.

Man! I got to put a "Christian" label on my music.

 

[RedStone]

Finding a good overall EQ curve that compliments the track, and using a multiband compressor (if you don't accidentally destroy the sound of the track in the process) will help come the limiting stage. For example, if you have a track with a very loud bass guitar and kick drum, that is what will hit the limiter first. So as you push the limiter, you might notice the low end starting to distort. I would bet the farm that most home recordings (like mine) have a lot of bass, which is compensated for with a shrill high end and a lack of mids. Fixing that can be quite a task. But as for limiting, I try to get the dynamic range of the track roughly where I want it even before hitting up a limiter. That's my process, and I'm new to mastering (ironically, not by choice but by necessity) ... so I am probably wrong. But it's worked for me so far.