When mixing down before mastering

[amoretam]

another problem is: if you turn down the fader for a group, then you are altering the wet/dry balance of those faders (belonging to the group) that have sends on them. so the only secure way to turn down the whole mix is with the master fader for sure

sorry this is old, but I was just reading this:

I see what you're saying. But even then, if we want to bring the whole mix down, we don't have to turn down all the individual faders in a group. We just have to turn down the fader for the group itself, right? So, whatever compression is on the group would be pre-fader and not be affected by bringing down that fader, no?
I hope that made some sense.

 

[RAMI]

another problem is: if you turn down the fader for a group, then you are altering the wet/dry balance of those faders (belonging to the group) that have sends on them.

Only if your sends are pre-fader, which is the ecxeption, not the rule.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

another problem is: if you turn down the fader for a group, then you are altering the wet/dry balance of those faders (belonging to the group) that have sends on them. so the only secure way to turn down the whole mix is with the master fader for sure

Yes, even with post fader sends on channels, if they send to an effect that isn't routed back to the same group as the channels in question, the dry/wet balance will be altered. If the effect is shared by channels going to the group and channels routed differently then it becomes tricky to figure out how to lower the whole mix without changing any other aspects. Using the master fader avoids those problems. Proper levels from the start prevents the problem entirely.

 

[RAMI]

Yes, even with post fader sends on channels, if they send to an effect that isn't routed back to the same group as the channels in question

I read that like 10 times and I'm having trouble understanding it. Not getting it. Not saying it doesn't make sense, I just can't see what you're talking about.

Let me just explain how I see it, and maybe it will reveal what I'm missing.

Let's say I have a send delay on a vocal track, for example. The delay is set to be, let's say, 5db lower then the original signal. Assuming we're talking post-fader, if I turn down the fader of that vocal track, the delay will also come down proportionately and still be 5db lower than the original signal, no? So, if I'm right, wouldn't that apply to all the sends on all the channels and groups?

What am I missing, because I'm sure it's something.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I read that like 10 times and I'm having trouble understanding it. Not getting it.

Picture using one shared reverb for all channels and routing the output of the reverb to the main mix. Now assign some channels to a group. You can raise or lower the whole group and but reverb for those channels doesn't follow. You can mute the group completely and the reverb for those channels still comes through without any change. That alters the wet/dry balance of the grouped channels.

Now picture setting up a reverb just for the grouped channels and routing the output of that reverb to the same group as the channels. That keeps the reverb in proportion to the channels when adjusting the group fader. Any group inserts also apply to the reverb which sort of keeps things locked together.

You could put the reverb right on the group as an insert, but that is more limiting. If it's a drum group and you want the kick to be dryer than the snare you can't do it with a reverb inserted on the group.

 

[RAMI]

Picture using one shared reverb for all channels and routing the output of the reverb to the main mix. Now assign some channels to a group. You can raise or lower the whole group and but reverb for those channels doesn't follow. You can mute the group completely and the reverb for those channels still comes through without any change. That alters the wet/dry balance of the grouped channels.

I'm not disputing what you're saying. But I did try that in REAPER and it didn't go that way. I called up a tune that has reverb sent to the snare, kik, and overheads separately. I turned down the group, I turned down the individual tracks, I muted the tracks, I muted the group. In each case, the reverb either came down with the tracks or group, or it was also silent when I muted stuff. Maybe REAPER works that way, and that might explain why I couldn't get what you guys are saying.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I'm not disputing what you're saying. But I did try that in REAPER and it didn't go that way. I called up a tune that has reverb sent to the snare, kik, and overheads separately. I turned down the group, I turned down the individual tracks, I muted the tracks, I muted the group. In each case, the reverb either came down with the tracks or group, or it was also silent when I muted stuff. Maybe REAPER works that way, and that might explain why I couldn't get what you guys are saying.

It's not Reaper, it must be how you are routing things or you're talking about control groups rather than submix groups.

I was able to reproduce the outcome I described in Reaper. In a project with only one audio track (just using it to play mixes) I added a submix group bus and a reverb bus. I had never done this in Reaper so I had to figure out Reaper's weird ways of doing things.

I inserted a second track to be the group bus. On the Track 1 I added a new send, selected Track 2 and unchecked Master/parent send. In conventional mixer terminology I assigned Track 1 to a group bus and unassigned it from the main bus. I left the send in post fader/post pan so I could just use the regular channel fader. The group bus channel was left assigned to the main mix (Master/parent send checked) as would be normal for a submix group bus.

Then I inserted a third track to be the reverb bus. On that track I added a reverb plugin and set the "dry" to -∞. I added a new send to Track 1 and selected Track 3 as the target. I left this bus assigned to the main mix (Master/parent send checked) as would be normal for a shared reverb. I lowered Send 2 on Track 1 so get a nice balance of reverb.

Lowering the group bus lowered the original audio but not the reverb.

 

[RAMI]

Ah, you probably right.

I do my routing in REAPER maybe a little differently than most. I don't make "groups". I make "folders". So, all my drums are in the "DRUM" folder (obviously ). That's got to affect things differently. But one thing for sure, my effect send levels move up and down in proportion to the original signal level. I might have accidentally found a work around.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I fooled around with Reaper some more to learn about folders. Folders are control groups. I wish DAW makers would stop inventing new proprietary names for things that already have perfectly good generic names.

Control groups aren't submix groups. Control groups just gang together control of track parameters. Submix groups actually combine the signals into one before the main mix bus. If you need to process a group of tracks as one signal you have to submix them.

 

[RAMI]

I fooled around with Reaper some more to learn about folders. Folders are control groups. I wish DAW makers would stop inventing new proprietary names for things that already have perfectly good generic names.

Ah, ok. Didn't know they were called control groups, but I've heard that term before.

If you need to process a group of tracks as one signal you have to submix them.

Once again, not sure if I understand. If I put compression, EQ, etc...on the drum folder channel, it affects my whole kit. Same with sending reverb to it. Not sure if I'm referring to the same thing you're talking about, though.

 

[Greg_L]

[yoda]Highly confusing this is.[/yoda]

 

[RAMI]

[yoda]Highly confusing this is.[/yoda]

Yeah, at this point, it's just an interesting conversation (well, for me anyway ).

I already know what works for me and I'll keep doing things the way I've been doing them, but I learned a thing or 2.

 

[Greg_L]

Yeah, at this point, it's just an interesting conversation (well, for me anyway ).

I already know what works for me and I'll keep doing things the way I've been doing them, but I learned a thing or 2.

I still have yet to grasp pre/post fader stuff. I don't send anything to single effects tracks. If I use a group track I just put the processing as inserts and apply it to the whole group.

 

[aaronmcoleman]

I can't even explain what I do…folders, busses, reapers routing matrix.

I get very confused. But somehow it works out.