Too much BASS

There is a point you hit when cable starts to lose return on how much you pay for it. I dont think any of those monster cables are the best ones out there. i have some mogami and i put together all my own cable, and if im not mistaken it sounds just as good (and is probably better quality) then the monstor 1000 at about 10x the price i cant even remember how much it cost for 5 feet of taht crap. its good cable, and if they sponsored me :) then great. but they dont, and their products are not superior.
 
smellyfuzz said:
SHUT UP BEAR!
...typical mindless SF rant snipped....
Click to expand...

Sean, you hyper-sensitive little shit...

I have as much right to shoot down an opinion as you have to give one, so fuck ya....

Bruce
 
hi AlinMV,

back to business...

if you move from your listening spot to a corner and if you get a significant Bass increase (which is expected), you can bet this is a room modal response issue in your listening spot. also, the Bass problem is not related to early reflections, which placing the Absorbing Material behind the speakers helps correct. this type of treatment is for a Live-End-Dead-End type of setup.

something to be concerned about is actually making the room worse (more uneven) by randomly placing acoustic treatment.

treating Bass (Room Modal Response) is absorning Bass such that you tame the standing waves that form in the room. it may seem odd that to get more Bass in your mix you want to remove Room Bass.

Question:
what is the shape and dimensions of your mixing room? room shape and size matters, significantly!

regards,
-kp-
 
Room Dimensions

Sonixx

The room is essentially 10 by 12 or so. It is carpeted with a window and has a couch and chair in it and my set up, and the walls are essentially bare. . . Pretty crowded!!!

Are you saying that what I should be concerned about is setting up bass traps? Also, what are standing waves? I think I understand what they are but could always use the education.

Tubedude

As far as phase reversal switch, I guess I am not sure what you are talking about. I know what you mean by phase reversal, but what's the switch? Also, when you say reverse one side, are you referring to the mix down tracks or just the bass track? I could use some more info on what you're saying.

Albert
 
try this, then...

1st, try what everyone else is telling you may be the problem. (I'm assuming you checked your speakers to see if they were moving together and not against each other?) If nothing else works for ya, make yourself a short cable and reverse the positive and negative on one end. PLug it in to one side, and leave your other side normal. If bass is better, then you have, SOMEWHERE, a crossed wire. If not, then its your room for sure. When you get done, fix the cable immediatly or toss it, so it doesnt end up in the wrong place.
Other than that, I'm tapped for answers... try everyone elses ideas. I have a phase reverse in Sonar that does the trick. I'm not sure what you're using.
Peace,
Paul
 
Re: Room Dimensions

AlinMV said:
Sonixx

The room is essentially 10 by 12 or so. It is carpeted with a window and has a couch and chair in it and my set up, and the walls are essentially bare. . . Pretty crowded!!!

Are you saying that what I should be concerned about is setting up bass traps? Also, what are standing waves? I think I understand what they are but could always use the education.

Tubedude

As far as phase reversal switch, I guess I am not sure what you are talking about. I know what you mean by phase reversal, but what's the switch? Also, when you say reverse one side, are you referring to the mix down tracks or just the bass track? I could use some more info on what you're saying.

Albert
Click to expand...

Albert,

can you be a bit more precise.

Width =

Length =

Heigth =

standinding Waves form when the Room Dimensions equal the Wavelength or are a sub-multiple. problems arises when the room dimensions are similar in two or more directions (Planes). this causes significant non-uniformity in the Bass frequency Density throughout the room. if your sweet spot (Listening area) happens to be in a Null, then you'll hear to little Bass, which causes you to mix in to much Bass. absorbing the standing waves, helps to smooth the Bass density in the room. if your listeneing area is half way between all four walls (in the center of the room), this is probably part of the problem. shifting the listening area backwards and to one side can help the Bass problem, but now you need to ensure the early reflections are not giving you phasing problems. a different problem for another day.

for example: if you have a room that is 16X16X8, then this roon will have Standining Waves in all planes that are submultiples, this is really bad. you'll get all three planes X Y and Z adding or subtracting in the same areas in the room. this creates significant Peaks and Valleys. you'll have areas in the room with very little bass and areas with way to much, and not just in the corners.

sounds as though you may have a room that is 10x12x8.
can you verify. thanks...

regards,
-kp-
 
Sonixx

Here are the room dimensions:

Height: 9'

Length: 12' 2''

Width: 10' 2''

Here is how the room is set up:



_____________________________________________
-----------------------C O U C H-------------------M

C
H--------------------------------------------------------------------R
A---------------------------------------------------ME--------------I
I---------------------------------------------------------------------G
R
___________________D O O R S__________M_______


Obviously, this is not to scale and is a very rough approximation of where things are.

(The "M" stands for monitor.)

Thanks for the explanation of standing waves. I do appreciate all of your help.

Albert
 
Some good advise here, when you guys were all talking about placement and acoustics, you were more than likely on the right track

Good cable works, the bigger the system the bigger the difference, keeping themshort works as well, but it won't account for a vast difference in the response - and especially in the frequency spectrum - of the speakers in question.

Checking if your system is in- or out of phase is very easy, play some music, grab one of the speakers and make it face the other one. If the sound remains the same you're in phase, if the low end completely disappears one of them is out of phase.

Thinking again....I bet you that's the case if you produce very bass heavy mixes which sound good on your monitors.
 
Somebody might have mentioned this, but I can't be botehred to check:

Try moving the speakers out of the corners. Straight corners work as reflectors and if youhave a standing wave problem that would at least move the place where you get the dead spot.
 
AlinMV said:
Sonixx

Here are the room dimensions:

Height: 9'

Length: 12' 2''

Width: 10' 2''

Here is how the room is set up:



_____________________________________________
-----------------------C O U C H-------------------M

C
H--------------------------------------------------------------------R
A---------------------------------------------------ME--------------I
I---------------------------------------------------------------------G
R
___________________D O O R S__________M_______


Obviously, this is not to scale and is a very rough approximation of where things are.

(The "M" stands for monitor.)

Thanks for the explanation of standing waves. I do appreciate all of your help.

Albert
Click to expand...

hi albert,

here's a quick and dirty look at the Axial mode distribution of your room. note this is not the end-all-be-all Bass analysis. but it does show a couple of problems you may want to consider. this look does not consider Tangential and Oblique modes, which contribute much less, but do have some affect. also, the room furniture can play a significant roll depending on placement.

first the low end fundamental frequency is

565 / 12.1667 = 46hz

this means your room will not support frequencies below this.

what is of some importance here is to have modal frequencies that are uniformly spaced. looking at the axial spacings of your room shows three big gaps ** and three multiple coincidences *:

Axial Distribution

Frequency + Difference
++++++++++++++++++++++++
46.43822894
55.57375227 9.135523335
62.77777778 7.204025507
92.87645787 30.09868009**
111.1475045 18.27104667
125.5555556 14.40805101
139.3146868 13.75913125
166.7212568 27.40657**
185.7529157 19.03165893
188.3333333 2.580417588*
222.2950091 33.96167575**
232.1911447 9.896135598*
251.1111111 18.91996643
277.8687614 26.75765024
278.6293736 0.760612264*

* Coincident Frequencies - Overlapping Axial modes - meaning that the room supports two or more identical axial frequencies. These need to be reduced with Bass Absorbers

** Gaps - Meaning the room has little support for these. These are problematic, but will be smoothed by when fixing the Coincident Frequencies.

Using Bass Traps (Helmholtz Resonators (Hi-Q), Slat Absorbers, Panel Absorbers (Lower-Q) and even carefully placed Stand Alone Cylidrical types (Even Lower Q). to absorb the Coincident Frequencis will smooth the room response as whole <300Hz, thus giving much better imaging and clarity and more accurate and truer bass reproduction

your room is fairly small 12.1667*10.1667*9 = 1113 cuft. rooms smaller than 1500 cuft are generally considered too small to mix/master in, but since this all you've got, it's definitely in need of some low end treatment.

regards,
-kp-
 
Sonixx said:


hi albert,

here's a quick and dirty look at the Axial mode distribution of your room. note this is not the end-all-be-all Bass analysis. but it does show a couple of problems you may want to consider. this look does not consider Tangential and Oblique modes, which contribute much less, but do have some affect. also, the room furniture can play a significant roll depending on placement.

first the low end fundamental frequency is

565 / 12.1667 = 46hz

this means your room will not support frequencies below this.

what is of some importance here is to have modal frequencies that are uniformly spaced. looking at the axial spacings of your room shows three big gaps ** and three multiple coincidences *:

Axial Distribution

Frequency + Difference
++++++++++++++++++++++++
46.43822894
55.57375227 9.135523335
62.77777778 7.204025507
92.87645787 30.09868009**
111.1475045 18.27104667
125.5555556 14.40805101
139.3146868 13.75913125
166.7212568 27.40657**
185.7529157 19.03165893
188.3333333 2.580417588*
222.2950091 33.96167575**
232.1911447 9.896135598*
251.1111111 18.91996643
277.8687614 26.75765024
278.6293736 0.760612264*

* Coincident Frequencies - Overlapping Axial modes - meaning that the room supports two or more identical axial frequencies. These need to be reduced with Bass Absorbers

** Gaps - Meaning the room has little support for these. These are problematic, but will be smoothed by when fixing the Coincident Frequencies.

Using Bass Traps (Helmholtz Resonators (Hi-Q), Slat Absorbers, Panel Absorbers (Lower-Q) and even carefully placed Stand Alone Cylidrical types (Even Lower Q). to absorb the Coincident Frequencis will smooth the room response as whole <300Hz, thus giving much better imaging and clarity and more accurate and truer bass reproduction

your room is fairly small 12.1667*10.1667*9 = 1113 cuft. rooms smaller than 1500 cuft are generally considered too small to mix/master in, but since this all you've got, it's definitely in need of some low end treatment.

regards,
-kp-
Click to expand...

Sonnix

Problem is, I haven't the slightest clue what you're telling me. Sorry for my ignorance, but that's where I am in life!! Hate to impose on you but, how 'bout some "do this: _____ " or "you can do that ________" kind of advice?

If not, thanks anyway for your posts.

Albert
 
:D


We truly have the best and smartest individuals on this site.

I would bet money, that when AlinMv posted this question he would never had thought that it would get answered so extensively. :)

peace...
spin
 
JFogarty said:


I found the problem cuasing the extra bass. ALL YOU BASS ARE BELONG TO US!
Click to expand...

Huh?

Hey Spinsterwun, you're absolutely correct!! Lots of good people with great information and experience.

Albert
 
AlinMV said:


Huh?

Hey Spinsterwun, you're absolutely correct!! Lots of good people with great information and experience.

Albert
Click to expand...

Its from an incredibly poorly translated sega game. I guess not enough computer/gaming nerds on the board.....
 
you could also just learn to listen to your monitors and room setting just the way it is.

When I mix peoples stuff they often ask I add more low end but I know the defects of my monitoring enviroment and I I telll them they dont know what they are talkign about..

Comments like that always lead to a few minutes of silence from the peanut gallery which gives me a chance to think.. haha They are still typically very happy with the end result so who cares
 
hi AlinMV,

i don't feel i can give you a do-this-that-or-another solution. every room requires a slightly different solution and any advice i give will probably be wrong. i'll suggest though you should learn a bit about Room Modes and Bass traps.

check out ETF at:

http://www.acoustisoft.com/Index.html

ETF is an acoustic analysis program. you can download the Demo and give your room a check. also, Doug's got a lot of useful info.

here's a link to a DIY cylindrical absorber. i've not made one, so i can't vouch for it.

http://ic.net/~jtgale/diy2.htm

for now, you should A-B your recordings with similar Retail recordings, and learn your room. unfortunately, you may need to mix with a weak low-end in order to get it right on other systems.

regards,
-kp-
 
I am learning to live with the acoustics of my room for now. There's a spot in the center of the room where there is a lot more bass present. I also realized that I like a lot of low end in my mixes. I boost every album on the high and low end typically for my listening. So, I was mixing with that result in mind to some extent.

Enemyof the sun, I agree with you that I'm just having to learn my room a bit better. And Sonixx, thanks again for the info. I will check it out next week when I have a little time.

Thanks for all the posts.

See you all next week.

Albert
 
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