To click-track or not to click-track..

Click track or no click track?

  • Yes, keep it locked on the beat please!

    Votes: 100 73.5%

  • No, use your own time to create live energy!

    Votes: 36 26.5%
  • Total voters
    136
I've spent thousands of hours practicing to a click; my tempo is fucking spot on. Every practice session I go through has at least a half hour dedicated to dynamics. I can play consistently and understand how to make my guitar cut through, no matter what effects or tone I'm using. That's not the case with everyone every musician will play with, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the people you deal with in home/project studios. Musicians who're just playing for fun or are at an amateur level are usually like that because they don't realize the subtle nuances that make someone a great player and you cannot blame anyone for that! It's lack of music education standards outside of universities, it's that a lot of 'teachers' don't even understand themselves and why they sound good and just teach songs, rudiments and scales!

I usually, because of time constraints, have the band play together and take measures to isolate even if I'm not doing a live recording because of some observations I've made with musicians who aren't 'pro', so to speak:

-They play better together time-wise
-They SOUND better and have better tone together
-They have more fun and are more confident and have more powerful expression because of it
-It's not a recording that way, it's just a performance and it's always more endearing

But I ALWAYS give every group of young musicians I meet 'the talk', so to speak, about the importance of practicing with a metronome for at least a few minutes every session so that you develop precision regardless of the situation (click or no click!). I'm not even talking about practicing material or rudiments with one on; I'm talking about landing exactly on click at slow tempos and leaving it at that, because if you can't land exactly on the click, you can't swing and you can't ever really play tightly with other people or a metronome.

But you should NEVER force a client to do something unless you're in a position where you're doing more than just tracking/mixing their music. If you're hired as a mentor and a producer and you've got that freedom, then go for it, teach them how to use a click and feel tempo. Otherwise, it's a waste of time and creates tension.
 
Here's a question.

If you are recording a band. A really good, tight band, with loads of dynamics and subtleties. AND they sound great on the recording. Why would you waste the time to create a tempo map, and then have the musicians adjust? It seems to me that this would be a complete waste of time, energy, and very likely will end up with a recording that feels forced.

I've noticed some engineers will have a band not play all together just so they can get the drums and bass together with a click. I've also noticed that the subtle emphasis points get lost because all the musicians are playing one at a time, because the engineer broke up the performances to be played individually.

I use a click when I don't have a good drummer to start a recording, but if I have a good drummer and can capture as many instruments at once that are well isolated then that's what I'm going to do. If it sounds great, and there are no noticeable timing issues, that IS a good recording.
 
undrgrnd studio said:
I use a click when I don't have a good drummer to start a recording, but if I have a good drummer and can capture as many instruments at once that are well isolated then that's what I'm going to do. If it sounds great, and there are no noticeable timing issues, that IS a good recording.
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See, I see it completely the other way. If I am working with a great drummer, they record to a click no problem (with the band playing along). A crappy drummer will just get distracted by the click and just mess up his drumming worse than it already is.

Is a click a necessity? Hell no, but it sure seems that bands that can record to one make the whole process smoother, and almost without fail end up with a superior product.
 
undrgrnd studio said:
If you are recording a band. A really good, tight band, with loads of dynamics and subtleties. AND they sound great on the recording. Why would you waste the time to create a tempo map, and then have the musicians adjust? It seems to me that this would be a complete waste of time, energy, and very likely will end up with a recording that feels forced.
Click to expand...
If it feels forced, that to me is a sign that the drummer cannot follow a beat, but can only make his/her own.

I'm pretty much with NL5 on this one; quality session drummers have no problem playing to a click track or playing without one, and it'll sound unforced and natural either way. It's just a question of whether they are leading the beat or following someone else's. Either way, it's a matter of internal timing and control.

It really comes down to the drummer's experience. If they are not used to playing in a studio or following someone/something else's beat, then IMHO they are not yet ready for the studio and need to practice up on that before they sit in front of the mics.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
If it feels forced, that to me is a sign that the drummer cannot follow a beat, but can only make his/her own.

I'm pretty much with NL5 on this one; quality session drummers have no problem playing to a click track or playing without one, and it'll sound unforced and natural either way. It's just a question of whether they are leading the beat or following someone else's. Either way, it's a matter of internal timing and control.

It really comes down to the drummer's experience. If they are not used to playing in a studio or following someone/something else's beat, then IMHO they are not yet ready for the studio and need to practice up on that before they sit in front of the mics.

G.
Click to expand...

I get the concept, but to me I think it's wrong. I know many wonderful drummers, and most have no problem playing to a click. I used to do EVERYTHING with a click, and then I realized I was sucking a bit of life out of some recordings, especially full band situations. I realized that not every recording needs to be approached the same way. Do you think Bob Dylan used a metronome on all his tunes?
 
undrgrnd studio said:
I get the concept, but to me I think it's wrong. I know many wonderful drummers, and most have no problem playing to a click. I used to do EVERYTHING with a click, and then I realized I was sucking a bit of life out of some recordings, especially full band situations. I realized that not every recording needs to be approached the same way. Do you think Bob Dylan used a metronome on all his tunes?
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Not at all. And if you go back and check my earlier post in this thread, I said that one should only use a click instead of a musician if the musician couldn't deliver.

I should have added to that that there are times when it may not be up to the drummer to set the beat - when he's playing to some midi tracks, or when he's brought in as a substitute after the original tracks were laid, or when he's brought in to enhance a Bob Dylan acoustic recording, or when playing a live set with more than one simultaneous drummer, etc.

I guess my main point here was that if the drumming sounds robotic or forced, that's not the fault of the click track (or other beat/rhythm-setter), that's the fault of the drummer. I'd add to that "playing to a click track" does not mean that he's got to play his part *LIKE* a click track. There's still room to add personality and feel to the rhythm by playing slightly ahead or behind it and so forth; all the click track is meant to do is define the main tempo. If a drummer can't stick to that tempo, they may be the best live drummer around, but they are (IMHO) not yet ready for session work. And if they can't stick to that tempo and still sound natural, they can't blame it on the click track.

I see very little difference between saying that and saying that a bass player or a guitar player or keyboard player or dulcimer player has to be able to follow a drummer or a click track.

G.
 
I read an article on "honest recording" and, while I don't subscribe totally to the ideas in said article, one thing they mentioned was "starting with a click track" but not keeping it the whole time. I think this strikes an interesting middle ground. I've never recorded a full band so i don't have the experience to back this up, I'm just thinking here. But that does seem like a valid option. Because as someone pointed out in another thread somewhere, internal timing and groove are two very different things.

For me, personally, I record all parts myself and need the click so that I don't get lost in a mess of sounds. For full bands though, I may try this option.
 
nate_dennis said:
I read an article on "honest recording" and, while I don't subscribe totally to the ideas in said article, one thing they mentioned was "starting with a click track" but not keeping it the whole time. I think this strikes an interesting middle ground. I've never recorded a full band so i don't have the experience to back this up, I'm just thinking here. But that does seem like a valid option. Because as someone pointed out in another thread somewhere, internal timing and groove are two very different things.

For me, personally, I record all parts myself and need the click so that I don't get lost in a mess of sounds. For full bands though, I may try this option.
Click to expand...

I did this for the longest time with bands that had drummers who couldn't follow a click/spazzed out at fast fills/had a poor sense of tempo in general, and it doesn't do much but make it a bit easier to start the song out.

The main issue here is that there's a difference between grooving and adhering to strict tempo, but it's such a small difference that it can't be used as an excuse.

You can follow tempo (loosely or tightly) or you can't.
 
Absolutely, and like I said, I don't have any experience with it so I'm not advocating it, just throwing it out there. (Hows that for a run-on sentence?) I think that MUSICALLY groove is more important than tempo AS A RULE. But there are times when this is not true. But for recording, edits, and stuff tempo is hugely important. I guess I don't have enough experience to give an educated answer to this poll. Except, as stated before, I use one b/c I do everything myself and need it to keep parts together.
 
A former girlfriend (now dead) was quite well connected with the jazz musician's community in New Orleans, I was more hooked in with the rockers. I knew that rock drummers often use click tracks- even for performance, and asked her about the jazz drummers. She got back to me and said that jazz drummers hardly ever use click tracks, and NEVER (well almost never) live.
 
I think the click track is awesome. Some of the people I record with, hate it though. This brings up an important issue:

The headphone mix.

There are a couple of ways to use a click track without it being overbearing to everyone. You can port the click-track to just the drummer. This way everyone is playing to a click track without knowing it. I play bass and I prefer to hear the click track, even when I'm playing with the drummer.

If you want to port the click track to everyone, make sure it's at a comfortable level for everyone. Seem people want it to blare, some people want to barely hear it.

Also, if your DAW has the ability to do it, change the click track so that it doesn't sound like crap. The default click in Sonar 7 is horrendous, but they have a few other options (e.g. hi-hat, stick hit, etc.) that sound a lot more natural. It can make a big difference.

In sum, the click track is glorious. I love it. It makes it a million times easier to edit the tracks, punch in, apply reverbs that line up with tempos, etc. It's only when you don't use it and get to the mixing stage that you realize how much easier it could have been.
 
royalt213 said:
Also, if your DAW has the ability to do it, change the click track so that it doesn't sound like crap. The default click in Sonar 7 is horrendous, but they have a few other options (e.g. hi-hat, stick hit, etc.) that sound a lot more natural. It can make a big difference.
Click to expand...

You have a very good point. I never record demos without a click going, so I've experimented with the sound a lot. Things with extremely sharp transients tend to make it feel much too urgent. Like Sonar's default. It's hard to lay back sometimes.
 
Click Click bloody Click Click

My 2 cents.
Use a click . . .
But I've been in the studio where a musician (guitar player) had a hard time keeping up with the click, and in that case we just got the best we could and moved on . . .
 
Hell no. That's what drummers are for. If you don't have a drummer it could be useful. When I recorded an album with my old band we went in and cranked it out in 2 3 hour sessions. We'd practiced once a week for a few months so we knew what we were doing, each track was one take, a couple were done twice, no more than twice. If we went over it again, we erased the first one, and if it wasn't right the second time we left it alone for then.
 
While I do understand the approach of just letting the beat flow with the band's timing, I've also preferred to use a click track on everything I ever recorded, and I never found it to be a problem.
The drummer I work with always plays to a click track, and he can still drift a pinch at times, like when he’s coming off some complicated rolls...but at those moments, I will just push the click track level up a pinch for a few seconds, and he falls right back into it without much ado.

What I like to do with the click track when other people are recording with me, is to pan it hard to one side, and then just bring it up loud enough to be noticeable, but not on top of all the other tracks.
If it's real loud...yeah, it can be distracting, but if I set it at a more “subliminal” level...it tends to go unnoticed, but it still helps to hold the rhythm tight.
When I do the playing, I just let the click pound away. After all these years, I can follow it while at the same time ignoring it and not letting it distract me from my playing.

Personally...I like a nice tight rhythm, and I tend to prefer my Pop/Rock music that way. I think too often the “feel” that some guys talk about is mostly just sloppy playing, but yeah, there times when a little “drift” can work for a particular song.

But here's the other thing...unless you are always recording a full band, or at least the full rhythm section of that band, you really can't overdub later on as well if you didn’t start off with a click track, because if you are tracking without a click and doing only 1-2 tracks at a time, and then using those tracks as your guide for the next tracks…every individual track following will add its own drift...
…and in the end it will sound sloppy.
For me, even if I was going to track drums, bass and R. guitar at the same time...I would still prefer to use a click track for them to follow. After that, I can kill the click track and just use those tracks for my timing guide.
Also, having the click has saved my butt MANY times…and it’s often helped me to sync up tracks when editing, but if I don’t have a click at the start…it’s not really possible to add it in later on when I wish I had it!

In the end, I guess you have to go with what feels comfortable...


miroslav
 
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I'd only use a click if it needed to line up with a video later or something that required perfect time, like if the song was being built up over several sessions.

When a drummer follows a click there's problems, like
* he is no longer the generator of the time, he is following something else, which to me messes with the drummer's fundamental role
* he can't rush in certain parts and drag in others as often sounds musically more correct than perfect time... I think it's called phrasing
* he most often uses headphones to hear it, and there you've thrown away the bottom 30 db where all the pretty is. That's why most drummers using headphones sound like they are playing with metal tipped sticks - crass. Like that thing when you talk to someone wearing headphones and they scream back at you.

The bottom line is whatever genre you're doing, do what the best in that genre did. Like you wouldn't use a solid state amp on a Zeppelin tune, and the same for a click.

Why does everybody think there's any musical value in playing with mathematical perfection? I always gather it's because of lack of accurate knowledge on what really makes a groove and swing occur.

Take any Miles album, drop the needle at the first, and then at the end... they always speed up, and these are the cream of the crop players.
 
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