The New Tone Thread

[minerman]

unless there's a personal reason why you think it'd be uncomfortable (like you two were an item) I think you might want to reach out about that.
If she loved the guy she might very well wish to hear him on those tapes but has no idea at all of how to play them or mix them down or anything.

It's just a weird situation Bob, him/her found religion a couple years after the band broke up, & of course, I had just gotten out into the world, & was wild as a buck for many years afterward....I know she loved him, there's no doubt about that, I saw that woman literally take care of him like a newborn baby when he got so down he couldn't do anything for himself....I'm gonna think about it for a couple/few days, & I might go see her & ask if I could possibly copy/re-record to my hdd/pc...She lives in walking distance from my Mom, so if nothing else, I could take my laptop & interface to her place, hook it all up, & just hit record on my daw. I do know there used to be hours & hours of those tapes, but dunno how many there are, so it could literally take days just to get 'em transferred to a hdd...I'm gonna think on it for a day or so, & may go see her to find out...

Shan: Dude, you would most likely have to re-write or transpose certain riffs/etc to make 'em fit with others, but a couple of my songs have been done like this, and if I can do something like that, I know anybody else can, as I'm just a hack at all this shit...

JDOD: Gimme just a little while & I'll get back with ya on those clips....

 

[JDOD]

JDOD: Gimme just a little while & I'll get back with ya on those clips....

Cheers, Miner. Did you like that Mad Season clip I put up for you too? I actually first heard that song during "one of them summers" and when I listen to it now it immediately takes me back there. All we seemed to do was drink, surf, get stoned, drop acid and play music.

No hurry on listening to my shit though. I'm generally happy with what I'm picking up now so am content to get on with the re-tracking of everything! (means I've gotta relearn some of my older songs!)
The one I am most interested in was the Chorus remix of pillars - 'cos I just picked up a nice pair good reference headphones and as soon as I listened to that chorus (which has 4 guitars; two lines double tracked L and R) I realised there was no separation between the two lines so I did some re-jigging and I'm really happy with the result so I wanted a 2nd opinion.

Also, Miner, is Greg gonna come back when he's unbanned? Or has he had a tit-full of the moderation? If so, can you pass on my email addy.

 

[JDOD]

OK, so most of us record rock guitars, ranging from pretty chilled and bluesy through to punk and metal, so we're mostly micing amps.

But I was thinking about something when replying to Andrushkiwt's thread. Lots of people (myself included) start trying to cock about with sims (option paralysis!), "pro-techniques" etc that we've heard about, read about or someone has said that they've done, trying to achieve something amazing and it's invariably a disaster. Would you guys agree that its pretty much an essential skill to first learn how to close mic an amp with an SM57 (or similar) and capture a decent approximation of what you can hear in the room and then dial the amp in?

Its strange - I've been messing about recording at home on and off for nearly 15 years - mainly using recording as a songwriting tool. But I only learned this about 6 months ago.

 

[rayc]

Close micing with an appropriate mic - yep probably lesson 2 after getting the tone you want from guitar & amp.

 

[JDOD]

Close micing with an appropriate mic - yep probably lesson 2 after getting the tone you want from guitar & amp.

Yeah, I wish I had learned it years ago. Suppose I started being able to afford to buy recording gear just as sims and AIs were becoming usable and affordable. I immediately started using sims and started endless playing with fake cabinets, mics and tweaking fake knobs, stomping on fake pedals.

 

[rayc]

It's a seductive and dangerous path but many, such as your self, see the light shining through the foliage and emerge full face into moving air and bullet proof diaphragms.

 

[Bubba po]

I borrowed a Vox AC15 for a project last week, and I'm thinking of posting some clips of the isolated guitar tracks for your consideration tonight. The AC15 is a great little amp. Still very loud and not a great deal of gain, but perfect for the thing I'm doing! Word has it that the version with the Alnico Blue speaker has a better tone than the 16 Ohm Greenback it comes fitted with, but it sounded pretty damned good to me.

 

[JDOD]

Cool, post it up when you've got it and tell us how you're micing it and stuff. Suppose you're going for a classic punk tone?

 

[Bubba po]

Cool, post it up when you've got it and tell us how you're micing it and stuff. Suppose you're going for a classic punk tone?

Absolutely. A no-frills, straight into the amp tone. There's a standard Tele rhythm track, a Yammy SG-style track with some more interesting riffing, and a short lead break with everything turned up, lol. It's very surprising, but the tone of that amp has filled the song very nicely with just two basic guitar tracks, using the barest of convolution room sims- quite different to the large halls that I usually favour. That said - the drums and bass tracks are excellent, which has helped a lot. More on that later.

 

[minerman]

JDOD: Ok, had a listen to your clips, & I like 'em both. I think the guitar tones are fine for the direction I think you're gonna be going with the song, but of course, when you add vocals & a lead guitar, that might change, but again, right now, I think they sound pretty good....

Never cared for that Mad Season song to be honest, I do like a couple/few of their songs, but that one just isn't one of 'em...Layne Staley was an amazing singer that basically killed himself with the big "H", & to be honest, he lasted a lot longer than I thought he would...still terrible, but it was the path he chose...While I've sorta been down that road myself, there's a line you cross, that you never come back from IMO...Makes me wonder what kinda music he'd been putting out if he'd cleaned up, ya know???

On the ampsim thing you mentioned, that's exactly how I got started too, I used ampsims for about 3-4 years before I ever even considered using a real amp. That question you asked has pros/cons to both sides, but the big thing to remember about an ampsim, to me, is that it's a simulation of a recorded tone, not a simulation of the actual amp by itself, basically, the whole signal chain is being simulated. Does it make it any easier to dial an ampsim in, maybe, maybe not, but it did kinda open my eyes to the fact that in my honest opinion, there's always gonna be a compromise somewhere along the line. Now, I'm not saying you can't get good tones from ampsims, matter of fact, they're better now than they were just a couple years ago (IMO anyway), but there's still that missing "thing", to me, it's the 3-d quality that a real cab puts into the mic, & if I could figure out how to get that with an ampsim, I'd sell my DSL, 4x12 & mics, but for the life of me, I can't get those qualities no matter what I try (eq, compression, reverb, standing on my head....lol)...Just a couple days ago, I even tried cranking up my monitors, to try to get the feel from an ampsim that a real amp has, & it just wasn't there. But, I will say playing through a couple 8" speakers isn't a fair comparison to a 4x12 being pushed by a 100w tube head either, so again, compromise...I personally think they've got the amp, pedals, etc pretty much there, it's the cabinet emulation that just isn't quite there yet. But, they're making leaps/bounds on that problem too. Will the ampsim dudes ever get it 100%??? I dunno, but I will say the new generation of modelers would have no problems fitting into a mix, & most people couldn't tell the difference, including me...Sorry for the long-ass post, but that's just my take on the ampsims right now. To be honest, I'd love it if I could use an ampsim & get the exact tone my amp gets. While it's really close, it's still just not there yet...

Bubba: Post your tones up dude, that's what this thread is for....And, I'm assuming since you're bragging on the drum sounds, Greg had a hand in 'em, as I remember you saying something about you guys working on something together....It does make it so much easier for a guitar track to "fit", when the rest of the instruments sound good, doesn't it???

Oh yeah, I did talk to Greg via e-mail a couple days ago, & I think it's safe to say he'll be back. Now, if he doesn't come back, don't come bitchin' at me, but again, I think the Gerg will be back when his vacation is over...

 

[JDOD]

JDOD: Ok, had a listen to your clips, & I like 'em both. I think the guitar tones are fine for the direction I think you're gonna be going with the song, but of course, when you add vocals & a lead guitar, that might change, but again, right now, I think they sound pretty good....

Never cared for that Mad Season song to be honest, I do like a couple/few of their songs, but that one just isn't one of 'em...Layne Staley was an amazing singer that basically killed himself with the big "H", & to be honest, he lasted a lot longer than I thought he would...still terrible, but it was the path he chose...While I've sorta been down that road myself, there's a line you cross, that you never come back from IMO...Makes me wonder what kinda music he'd been putting out if he'd cleaned up, ya know???

On the ampsim thing you mentioned, that's exactly how I got started too, I used ampsims for about 3-4 years before I ever even considered using a real amp. That question you asked has pros/cons to both sides, but the big thing to remember about an ampsim, to me, is that it's a simulation of a recorded tone, not a simulation of the actual amp by itself, basically, the whole signal chain is being simulated. Does it make it any easier to dial an ampsim in, maybe, maybe not, but it did kinda open my eyes to the fact that in my honest opinion, there's always gonna be a compromise somewhere along the line. Now, I'm not saying you can't get good tones from ampsims, matter of fact, they're better now than they were just a couple years ago (IMO anyway), but there's still that missing "thing", to me, it's the 3-d quality that a real cab puts into the mic, & if I could figure out how to get that with an ampsim, I'd sell my DSL, 4x12 & mics, but for the life of me, I can't get those qualities no matter what I try (eq, compression, reverb, standing on my head....lol)...Just a couple days ago, I even tried cranking up my monitors, to try to get the feel from an ampsim that a real amp has, & it just wasn't there. But, I will say playing through a couple 8" speakers isn't a fair comparison to a 4x12 being pushed by a 100w tube head either, so again, compromise...I personally think they've got the amp, pedals, etc pretty much there, it's the cabinet emulation that just isn't quite there yet. But, they're making leaps/bounds on that problem too. Will the ampsim dudes ever get it 100%??? I dunno, but I will say the new generation of modelers would have no problems fitting into a mix, & most people couldn't tell the difference, including me...Sorry for the long-ass post, but that's just my take on the ampsims right now. To be honest, I'd love it if I could use an ampsim & get the exact tone my amp gets. While it's really close, it's still just not there yet...

Bubba: Post your tones up dude, that's what this thread is for....And, I'm assuming since you're bragging on the drum sounds, Greg had a hand in 'em, as I remember you saying something about you guys working on something together....It does make it so much easier for a guitar track to "fit", when the rest of the instruments sound good, doesn't it???

Oh yeah, I did talk to Greg via e-mail a couple days ago, & I think it's safe to say he'll be back. Now, if he doesn't come back, don't come bitchin' at me, but again, I think the Gerg will be back when his vacation is over...

Miner, I agree with you on the drawback of sims - its not their sound as such. As you say, they're getting much better, its kinda the feel you have when you play while standing (or sitting) in front of a loud amp! I still use sims for bass - 'cos I have a 10W Peavy Micro-bass as a bass amp!
Yeah, Layne Staley's death was very sad - like a really long drawn out slow motion suicide.

 

[kindafishy]

Yeah, I wish I had learned it years ago. Suppose I started being able to afford to buy recording gear just as sims and AIs were becoming usable and affordable. I immediately started using sims and started endless playing with fake cabinets, mics and tweaking fake knobs, stomping on fake pedals.

Brother, you just described my experience exactly. I have been playing for many years, but when I started getting into recording, ampsims were providing what purported to be usable sounds. Right around the time of Amplitube 2, if I recall correctly.

Ampsims gave me years of futzing, tweaking, adjusting, swapping, flipping, double guessing, searching and ultimately being unhappy with any tone that I ended up landing on.

These days, I use S-Gear when I am scratching out guide tracks, getting ideas down or recording DI with the intention of reamping, but anything that is committed to a mix goes through a mic'd amp. Personally, I find using an amp gets me tones that I like an order of magnitude faster than using a sim. There is no comparison at all for me, end of story.

Got myself a little Fender head/cab and a little Marshall head/cab with a 57 over the last 8 months. I've got a new ribbon mic coming in the mail. I am in absolute heaven. The best part for me is that this is about 100000x more enjoyable than using an amp sim. Plus, I get to riff out loud using real gear instead of bits n' bytes whenever I want.

I couldn't be happier to be back in the world of amps. I wish I didn't take the detour into software, but hey, live and learn, right?

 

[JDOD]

I couldn't be happier to be back in the world of amps. I wish I didn't take the detour into software, but hey, live and learn, right?

Yeah, I totally agree. I still using sims for writing songs (and for bass), arranging and working out what I want to do, getting the drum track in place. But then I re-track the guitars later and try to make sure that I get them tracked from the start to the end of the song in single takes with no C&P.

I'm in the process of re-tracking my favourite 15 songs from the past 6 or 7 years. They normally end up getting edited and changed quite a lot as I go too so its quite time consuming... especially when I can't remember how to play one of them - I'm actually consciously avoiding one of them 'cos I know its a complicated bastard.

 

[minerman]

Ampsims gave me years of futzing, tweaking, adjusting, swapping, flipping, double guessing, searching and ultimately being unhappy with any tone that I ended up landing on.

Been there, done that man, I'm actually still punishing myself, even though I've got a decent 100w head, 4x12 cab, & a few mics....I think ampsims will get there eventually, but I'm like you, I find I'm way happier with my real mic'd tracks pretty much instantly, & it's a lot of fun playing through my half-stack too, I just can't do it late at night....

JDOD: Don't wanna get started on Layne, but yeah man, it was terrible to say the least. I've done a lot of reading about him, & his last few years were a damn nightmare, just some unbelievable shit he went through, but like I said before, he chose his own demise...Great singer though, I'd love to have heard him sing on the last couple AIC albums.....

 

[JDOD]

JDOD: Don't wanna get started on Layne, but yeah man, it was terrible to say the least. I've done a lot of reading about him, & his last few years were a damn nightmare, just some unbelievable shit he went through, but like I said before, he chose his own demise...Great singer though, I'd love to have heard him sing on the last couple AIC albums.....

Yeah, I understand that. Great voice, terrible end of life, sad loss - best leave it there.

---------- Update ----------

Been there, done that man, I'm actually still punishing myself, even though I've got a decent 100w head, 4x12 cab, & a few mics....I think ampsims will get there eventually, but I'm like you, I find I'm way happier with my real mic'd tracks pretty much instantly, & it's a lot of fun playing through my half-stack too, I just can't do it late at night....

I think that's the Crux of it miner - its just more fun!

 

[Bubba po]

Well, here's two of the stems from my track. Bear in mind that the sound was tailored to fit in the mix, and does so very well.

Guitar: Yamaha SG clone, bridge pickup, tone and volume up full.

(1 - Amp: Vox AC15, top boost channel, (bass 1 o'clock, treble dimed, volume 3 o'clock); Master 3 o'clock (about 70% of full vol); tone cut at 12 o'clock.)

(2 - Same as above but channel volume up full.)

The miking was done with the classic SM57 on the grille.

I don't expect you to listen to it all!

View attachment LGIT Mick GTR.mp3

 

[JDOD]

Sounds cool as fuck to me. Very clashy which isn't surprising coming from you. Last gang in town!

I do think the higher up stuff sounds a bit cutting/harsh, would probably be fine in a mix with bottom stuff to balance it out, my iPad cant seem to push my huge reference headphones that loud, but I think I might be doing a sour fizzy cola bottle face if it was loud on the high bits. I don't know the right terms to describe it but you know what I mean.

As I said though, with a bass line it would probably be fine.

 

[JDOD]

The 2nd one of the lead break is pretty much bang on.

 

[Bubba po]

Sounds cool as fuck to me. Very clashy which isn't surprising coming from you. Last gang in town!

I do think the higher up stuff sounds a bit cutting/harsh, would probably be fine in a mix with bottom stuff to balance it out, my iPad cant seem to push my huge reference headphones that loud, but I think I might be doing a sour fizzy cola bottle face if it was loud on the high bits. I don't know the right terms to describe it but you know what I mean..

I know exactly what you mean with the fizzy cola bottle face, lol. I've been trying to take on board Greg's philosophy of "record the sound that you want" so that you don't have to do any eq in the mix. They sound too harsh soloed, but they hit the spot in context with the other instruments. In some ways, I feel we're trying to re-invent the wheel, then in other ways I appreciate that we're returning to the recording knowledge that existed before amp sims and the easy option. There's a very good reason why the old records sounded so good. They are the original sounds that sims try so hard to emulate but fall utterly short of. The lead parts that sound bang on to you are actually slightly lacking in honesty and realism when compared to the original. It's frustrating to realise this, but it makes you really pay attention to what makes a great record great.

Greg's drum and bass tracks have needed ZERO treatment for the mix I'm putting together. I'm not sure that the significance of this fact will be properly understood by everybody, but in my opinion it takes an incredible amount of judgement and experience to supply tracks so perfectly-judged as these. They are utterly spot on. I'm in awe.

But of course, he's banned. ALL HAIL THE MANAGEMENT!!

 

[JDOD]

Fizzy cola bottle face was the only way I could describe it. I figured you'd know what i mean.

You're probably best of mixing it, posting it up your best effort and the stems of the bits you aren't sure about.

That's part of the reason old records sound good, mainly I think it's coz tape was expensive so musicians practiced like fuck and put in a great performance! The didn't think, whoops dropped a note in that chorus but it's ok, I'll copy and paste a bar from the other chorus. They got the fucker nailed.

There's probably nothing wrong with doing a bit of EQ in the mix if you know what you're doing (I don't) but recording shite and EQing it to death seems stupid to me. Get it as good as you can and maybe use and EQ for a tweak after. Think of it little subtle tit lift as opposed to a full silicone implant.