Tadpui
Well-known member
That's pretty damn cool. Nice feature. Glad it's working out better than expected, I have a feeling it's going to be an ear-saver with all that wattage in your jam room!
The New Tone Thread
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That's pretty damn cool. Nice feature. Glad it's working out better than expected, I have a feeling it's going to be an ear-saver with all that wattage in your jam room!
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
the mass IS the load ...... so the mass is always gonna be a 16ohm laod if it doesn't have a switchable load.
It basically replaces the speakers as the load and that's easy to see ..... it's a speaker even if the coil isn't hooked up to a cone.
And the reason for that is that a speakers impedance changes with frequency as the coil is also reacting to the magnet which the amp reacts to in various ways.
So just having a resister (which is all some attenuators are) doesn't make the amp behave as usual.
So they use a speaker motor to actually duplicate what the speaker does.
That is how it seems. The dummy speaker in the Mass appears to be the only load the amp sees, and then the signal just goes on to whatever cabs you have hooked up to it. So if that's how it works, then I can use any cabs and just keep my amps set at 16 ohms, which I like. There's all sorts of confusion about this thing out there, so I sent an email to Weber. I just assumed that I'd set the amp to whatever cab load I'm using. I'm waiting to hear back from Weber.
One thing for sure, this thing works, and it doesn't seem to exhibit the tone killing side effects that seems to plague some attenuators. I'm shocked at how well it works. It does get hot though! I might need to put a small handle on this thing. Grabbing it after a gig might result in some burns. I'm glad I sprung for the beefy 200 watt model. It definitely sounds better to me than using the PPIMV on the 100w Plexi. I'm especially excited that I can now wind the JCM 800 up to around 7 or 8 and still use it at gigs.
minerman
Tonetard
So, does this mean when you use the attenuator, you can use 2 different cabs with different impedance for each cab??? IE: 16ohm cab + 8ohm cab???
If so, that's pretty cool IMO, & is a great added bonus on top of it not killing the tone when in use....Gives me GAS pretty bad to be honest, if that thing works as good as I'm thinking, that's a no-brainer....Keep me posted on this thing Greg, you've got my interest up on this thing...
I don't know about using different ohm cabs at the same time. I'm still not sure why the amp only sees the dummy load regardless of what's hooked up after the attenuator.
Like when I use the 8x10 with the band. It's 4 ohms right now. Do I set my amp to 4 ohms, go through the 16 ohm Mass, and then into the 4 ohm cab? That doesn't seem right. Or do I set the amp to 16 ohms, hooked to the 16 ohm Mass, and then on to the 4 ohm cab? This is where I'm confused and there's literally nothing out there explaining it. I'm just not understanding. It would be easy if I only used 16 ohm cabs, but I don't.
Like when I use the 8x10 with the band. It's 4 ohms right now. Do I set my amp to 4 ohms, go through the 16 ohm Mass, and then into the 4 ohm cab? That doesn't seem right. Or do I set the amp to 16 ohms, hooked to the 16 ohm Mass, and then on to the 4 ohm cab? This is where I'm confused and there's literally nothing out there explaining it. I'm just not understanding. It would be easy if I only used 16 ohm cabs, but I don't.
minerman
Tonetard
I must've had my head up my ass again after reading what I posted....
.Did the guy at Weber answer your e-mail dude??? I'd keep after him about it until I was absolutely positively sure about it....I'd hate to fry one of my amps, & I know you would hate that shit too...
ocnor
Lord Of The Thighs
An L pad is a configuration of resistors that controls volume while maintaining a constant load impedance on the output of the amplifier. It consists of a parallel and series resistor in an "L" configuration. As one increases in resistance, the other decreases, which maintains a constant impedance.
Wow thanks for the insight. So if that's the case it seems I should just leave my amps set to 16 ohms all the time regardless of cab?
I must've had my head up my ass again after reading what I posted....
Did the guy at Weber answer your e-mail dude??? I'd keep after him about it until I was absolutely positively sure about it....I'd hate to fry one of my amps, & I know you would hate that shit too...
Haven't heard back yet but just from checking it out myself and from posts in here and elsewhere it seems that I should just set my amps to 16 and use any cab.
minerman
Tonetard
I've been looking around for the answer too man, & that's pretty much the general thing everybody has said...I'd love to have one, maybe before too long I can snag one up...
Oh yeah, if/when you get a chance, post some clips with/without, I'm pretty curious to hear what your amps sound like recorded through that thing....
Oh yeah, if/when you get a chance, post some clips with/without, I'm pretty curious to hear what your amps sound like recorded through that thing....
ocnor
Lord Of The Thighs
Yep! The amp will only see the 16 ohm dummy load and not the cabs.
Oh yeah for sure. Next week. Clips to come.
Thanks. That's what it appears to be doing. No matter what cab or cabs I connect to the Mass, the cable to the amp reads 16 ohms. I'm perfectly fine with that.
minerman
Tonetard
So, you just leave your head set to 16ohms, then connect any cab, whether it be 4, 8, or 16???? That's actually pretty cool...
Cool on the clips dude...no hurry, I'm just curious to hear something from you that's tamed down a little, volume-wise to compare it to your full-tilt clips...
Pretty sure the Kiss tribute thing has fallen through...I've tried to contact those guys for a few days now, & haven't gotten any response...I'm still on the hunt though, like I mentioned, I'm gonna try my best to do something musically this summer, it's been too many years...
Cool on the clips dude...no hurry, I'm just curious to hear something from you that's tamed down a little, volume-wise to compare it to your full-tilt clips...
Pretty sure the Kiss tribute thing has fallen through...I've tried to contact those guys for a few days now, & haven't gotten any response...I'm still on the hunt though, like I mentioned, I'm gonna try my best to do something musically this summer, it's been too many years...
Well that's how it seems. The website says "This unit is impedanced swamped to protect the output of your tube amp, and may be used with 4, 8, and 16 ohm amps.", but if the Mass 200 is permanently 16 ohms, I don't see how that's possible. I assumed that I'd still set the head to match the cabs and just put the attenuator in between, but I'm okay with leaving my shit set to 16 ohms too. I'm fine either way, I just want to know for sure! I do know for a fact that when I daisy chain two of my cabs, it's an 8 ohm load. I wired them up myself and it's been verified with a multimeter. But when I hook them to the attenuator, the cable that then connects to the amp still reads 16 ohms, which tells me that the little speaker motor in there is the ultimate deciding factor and everything that happens downstream of the attenuator is moot. I just want to be sure I'm using this thing the right way because it certainly seems to allow me to crank these beasts and get all of that sound at a more gig friendly volume.
Yeah I'll do some clips at full blast, and attenuated but boosted at the mic pre so they come in at the same level. I'll also do some without compensating the input gain so you can hear how much quieter it is.
Musicians are flakes. Lol. Just keep plugging away. something will turn up.
minerman
Tonetard
I actually looked at the Weber site today when you first posted about it, & read the same thing, but it confused me too...
I'm assuming if I had the same attenuator, I'd set my amp to 8ohms like always, because my cab is 8ohms, or would I set my amp to 16ohms & let the Weber do it's thing??? If/when you do find out, be sure to post that shit up & let me know dude, I think my next buy will be one of these...
I'm sure whatever you record with it will sound good Greg, I'm just really curious to see how much the speakers come into play by not being pushed as hard...In theory, the power tubes should be pushed as hard, maybe a little harder, but the speakers won't be as much...Pretty interesting, to me anyway....
Yeah, it's no big deal, I just wish they'd fuckin' answer one way or the other you know??? If they wanna play some music, let a guy know...I've already been looking around/talking to some other people anyway, again, it ain't no biggie...
rayc
retroreprobate
Greg & Minerman,
You've confused me.
The guitars were recorded with my Kustom Defender H5 into a Marshall 4 x 12.
The amp has one knob - volume - so the "gain structure" for the rhythm tracks is guitar volume knob then amp volume.
On the intro leads I added a Boss OD pedal but for extra vol to drive the amp a little harder at input, (except on one side where I used the tiniest bit of "drive", {as in with the drive knob set at 1}, to help differentiate one side from the other), so there's "gain" I assume there with guitar volume knob, increased level through the Boss then the amp volume knob.
I've probably misunderstood gain structure.
Where do I address the "gain" issue you've mentioned?
You've confused me.
The guitars were recorded with my Kustom Defender H5 into a Marshall 4 x 12.
The amp has one knob - volume - so the "gain structure" for the rhythm tracks is guitar volume knob then amp volume.
On the intro leads I added a Boss OD pedal but for extra vol to drive the amp a little harder at input, (except on one side where I used the tiniest bit of "drive", {as in with the drive knob set at 1}, to help differentiate one side from the other), so there's "gain" I assume there with guitar volume knob, increased level through the Boss then the amp volume knob.
I've probably misunderstood gain structure.
Where do I address the "gain" issue you've mentioned?
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I'm still not clear why the Mass is different from the Mini Mass with its load option.....I mean, inside they are pretty much the same, just designed for different amp output wattage.
The Mini Mass has specific options for the speaker impedance...so you can set your amp to what you prefer and where it gives the optimal output load.
I dunno...maybe they just gave those options to the Mini, but decided to keep the Mass with a single, set load for the amp to see....maybe it was a cost thing...maybe there something more going on when you get up to the 100W amps, like if you had it the option to use it at 8ohms, it would be too much for the Mass, so they set it at 16 ohms...???
I guess the simple thing would be to ask Weber...since they don't clarify the reason for the differences on their website.
*shrug*
The Mini Mass has specific options for the speaker impedance...so you can set your amp to what you prefer and where it gives the optimal output load.
I dunno...maybe they just gave those options to the Mini, but decided to keep the Mass with a single, set load for the amp to see....maybe it was a cost thing...maybe there something more going on when you get up to the 100W amps, like if you had it the option to use it at 8ohms, it would be too much for the Mass, so they set it at 16 ohms...???
I guess the simple thing would be to ask Weber...since they don't clarify the reason for the differences on their website.
*shrug*
ocnor
Lord Of The Thighs
They probably figured that most people that are trying to tame a 100 watt amp will be using a 4x12 cab and have their amp set to 16 ohms already. Also the excess wattage absorbed by the resistors turns to heat. Having the multi ohms option would require more resistors leaving less internal space for the heat to dissipate.
My first email to Weber before I bought the thing, I told them what I use, what cabs I use, and how I use them. The guy suggested the Mass 200, which is where I was always leaning anyway.
The confusion for me is simply A) do I set my amp at permanent 16 because that's what the Mass 200 is? Or B) treat it like it's invisible and match the head and cab ratings like normal?
Another wrinkle is the bypass switch. I didn't opt for the footswitchable bypass because it seems useless to me. What am I gonna do...go from attenuated to full blown wide open Plexi live? Uh, no. That would kill people. That would really make a lead break stand out. Lol. But anyway, when bypassed, the Mass goes from it's seemingly permanent 16 ohms to whatever your cabs are. How's that supposed to work?
The bottom line for me is that I'm fine with leaving my amps at 16 with any cab if that's how the Mass works. I actually prefer that. That would be awesome. I just need to know for sure that's the way to do it, or do I just match head and cabs like usual.
The confusion for me is simply A) do I set my amp at permanent 16 because that's what the Mass 200 is? Or B) treat it like it's invisible and match the head and cab ratings like normal?
Another wrinkle is the bypass switch. I didn't opt for the footswitchable bypass because it seems useless to me. What am I gonna do...go from attenuated to full blown wide open Plexi live? Uh, no. That would kill people. That would really make a lead break stand out. Lol. But anyway, when bypassed, the Mass goes from it's seemingly permanent 16 ohms to whatever your cabs are. How's that supposed to work?
The bottom line for me is that I'm fine with leaving my amps at 16 with any cab if that's how the Mass works. I actually prefer that. That would be awesome. I just need to know for sure that's the way to do it, or do I just match head and cabs like usual.
Hi Greg. You are doing the safest thing by leaving the amp set for 16 Ohms (more on this later) since any kind of load up to twice that Z will keep the amp pretty safe.
I am not sure what Weber mean by impedance "swamped" but might guess that there is always SOME load on the amplifier at all times . As for how you set and what cabs? Just what sounds best to you.
Now, that Impedance thang! The danger to valve amps is a higher load than set on the amp. This is because it allows the voltages on the anodes to rise to damaging levels and in the worse case, no load at all, kilo volts can be generated! Mind you, size matters. A high load on a 15 watter might be fine but on your 200W shredder it could take just seconds to bugger it.
Lower than optimum loads, 8R when set for 16 will cause the valves to run hotter and under high drive might red plate and (hopefully!) blow an HT fuse. Over time a low load will wear the valves faster but extremes could damage a badly designed amp, one say without HT fuses and feeble bias and screen resistors.
The Golden Rule is load your amp as per the book but 50% or so either way should do no harm. Tapping at 4 Ohms and running a 16 Ohm speaker is asking for trouble and the bigger the amp, the more likely is that trouble.
Hope this helps a bit?
Dave.