Superior Drummer: opinions please

M

mspin

New member
I have EZ drummer 2. I have been using it for a while. I feel like I may be outgrowing it. I am limited with the mixing capabilities with EZ drummer. I know Superior has more mixing capabilities for individual pieces. Do any of you use the Superior Drummer 2.0 and do you think it was a wise upgrade. Please let me know your thoughts. I am looking to cross grade and would appreciate opinions from those that are using it.

Thanks
 
I don't have EZD2...but I do have the original EZD and also SD2.
I only used EZD for a very short time, and then I got SD2...and I never, ever used EZD again....but I do use the EZ expansion packs with SD2...and you can also use the new EZD2 expansion packs with SD2.

Bottom line...EZD2 is for songwriters who want to just pull up drum groove presets that sound pretty decent out of the box...and not get in too deep with tweaking them.
SD2 is a comprehensive program for the person who likes to mix their drums same as they would all their other recorded tracks. So yeah, you can do a lot more with SD2.

I would certainly recommend it...especially if you are already felling like EZD2 isn't giving you everything you want. :)
 
Miro's right about SD man, it's more like having a kit recorded in your daw, & you can mix 'em however you like....I've got a bunch of the Toontrack expansion packs, everybody's got different tastes/likes, but there are a couple in particular that I like a lot...

Made of Metal EZX: This is actually an EZ Drummer 2 expansion pack, but it can also be used (like Miro mentioned) in SD...I personally have been using this one all the time since I bought it a little while back..

Evil Drums: Superior SDX, just a really good sounding bunch of drum samples, more like a raw recording than most of the drum samples I've heard, I personally think they're really good....

The only thing I don't like about any of the drum vsti's (all of them) is I have a really hard time getting the hi-hats to sound natural/real, but I'd say that's just the way I'm using them...

And, like Miro said, if you feel you're already outgrowing EZD2, it's probably time to upgrade to SD...:)
 
minerman said:
The only thing I don't like about any of the drum vsti's (all of them) is I have a really hard time getting the hi-hats to sound natural/real, but I'd say that's just the way I'm using them...
Click to expand...

I dug through a whole bunch of expansion packs to select 2-3 Hats that I liked...plus I further tweaked them AFA pitch/envelope...etc. Same thing with crash cymbals...I have several that I really like, and if I pull up a different base kit, I will load the hats or cymbals...or other things...as X-Drums into the base kit I'm using.

Of course, as you say it depends on the music you are doing and your tastes...but with several expansion packs in the flavors you use most, you can easily build 2-3 go-to kits that sound great.

I find the pitch tweaks to be the most helpful in fixing a hat or cymbals or snare sample that I don't quite like...and of course, it's level has to be balanced with the rest of the kit.
 
Yeah dude, I do the x-drum thing, I also blend other samples (Slate) with Toontrack....I've not really messed with the pitch thing very much, any way you could post a screenshot one of your SD presets to let me see what you've done???
 
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I don't have my DAW online...so I would have to do some cut/copy/paste from my DAW to my laptop...but maybe tomorrow.

Though not sure what you want to see in the screenshot...? I mean, the screen shot won't reveal all the tweaks.

On the pitch...all I'm doing is micro-adjusting the pitch up/down for a drum or cymbal. It can make a big difference.
With drums, it's basically like changing the tension of the heads to go up/down in pitch until it sounds good to you.
For the cymbals...it can really change the character of the cymbal...and then if you play with the envelope, you can take a pinch off the attack, so it's not as hard sounding, or you can shorten the decay if you don't want the cymbal to hang too long...etc.
Same thing on the various drums...pitch & envelope edits can help you shape the sound to your liking.
 
miroslav said:
I don't have my DAW online...so I would have to do some cut/copy/paste from my DAW to my laptop...but maybe tomorrow.

Though not sure what you want to see in the screenshot...? I mean, the screen shot won't reveal all the tweaks.

On the pitch...all I'm doing is micro-adjusting the pitch up/down for a drum or cymbal. It can make a big difference.
With drums, it's basically like changing the tension of the heads to go up/down in pitch until it sounds good to you.
For the cymbals...it can really change the character of the cymbal...and then if you play with the envelope, you can take a pinch off the attack, so it's not as hard sounding, or you can shorten the decay if you don't want the cymbal to hang too long...etc.
Same thing on the various drums...pitch & envelope edits can help you shape the sound to your liking.
Click to expand...

I understand the envelope thing, as on a lot of my cymbals, I take a little of the attack off of 'em, but I've never really messed with the pitch thing at all...

Check your pm's dude....
 
miroslav said:
I don't have EZD2...but I do have the original EZD and also SD2.
I only used EZD for a very short time, and then I got SD2...and I never, ever used EZD again....but I do use the EZ expansion packs with SD2...and you can also use the new EZD2 expansion packs with SD2.

Bottom line...EZD2 is for songwriters who want to just pull up drum groove presets that sound pretty decent out of the box...and not get in too deep with tweaking them.
SD2 is a comprehensive program for the person who likes to mix their drums same as they would all their other recorded tracks. So yeah, you can do a lot more with SD2.

I would certainly recommend it...especially if you are already felling like EZD2 isn't giving you everything you want. :)
Click to expand...


Are the grooves as convenient as EZD but with more mixing control?
 
Can you even get to the grooves from SD? I haven't figured that part out yet.

The main reason I use SD over EZD is the xdrum thing where you can mix and match pieces from different kits, but doesn't EZD2 do that now? I also use it when I need to remap the drums to different MIDI notes, which is pretty often nowadays.

I'm not sure I get the thing about mixing flexibility. All of the individual mics are available as seperate outputs from EZD same as SD. Not quite as much control over the bleed, and I guess you can adjust the volume of individual pieces say in the overheads or room mics so there's kind of some "pre-mic mixing you can do. That's not really something your be able to do with real drums, though. I mean mic placement can do some of that, but once the mics are set, you take what the drummer gives, so in a way it makes more sense to control those mix aspects via velocity rather than volume.

I have messed with the pitch thing a little, but it seems to get pretty unnatural pretty fast. All I have for extra kits is in EZ packs, but they are sampled at a rather low rate, so tuning anything downward makes a noticeable difference in the very top end, and since the only thing in most of my mixes with any real energy above 10K or so is the drums (cymbals mostly) I can't usually tolerate that kind of thing.
 
EZD2 - not getting the 'can't mix' comments. You can select any drum/cymbal from your packs. You can then tune (the pitch control is very sensitive - just a little tweak will work) the drum/cymbal and adjust overall velocity. You can set each instrument to it's own track in your DAW (used to be limited to 8 tracks, but no longer). There are bleed controls for snare and OHs.
No doubt SD is stronger and allows even more choices
 
SD is pretty cheap for that it does, and I have zero need for any other full drumming software.
 
mspin said:
Are the grooves as convenient as EZD but with more mixing control?
Click to expand...

Right.


ashcat_lt said:
I'm not sure I get the thing about mixing flexibility. All of the individual mics are available as separate outputs from EZD same as SD. Not quite as much control over the bleed, and I guess you can adjust the volume of individual pieces say in the overheads or room mics so there's kind of some "pre-mic mixing you can do. That's not really something your be able to do with real drums, though. I mean mic placement can do some of that, but once the mics are set, you take what the drummer gives, so in a way it makes more sense to control those mix aspects via velocity rather than volume.
Click to expand...

SD is just more surgical and it lets you get past any processing that they may have pre-applied to the samples.
Also...while velocity can do one thing...it still requires a certain overall volume setting. IOW, just lowering velocity isn't the same as lowering volume and vice versa. I mean, yeah lower velocity = lower volume...but it also changes the attack...and sometimes you just want lower volume and not mess with the attack....or the other way around.

The only thing that I wish I could do that SD can't...is to move the cymbal positions.
They are purely done with the OH mics...and while you can pan/shift the OH track, it also moves all the other things.
IOW....with a real live kit setup...you could simply walk over to the kit and move the cymbals a bit.
While I do generally like the cymbal positions that the OH track provides...mostly hard left/right....sometime I wish I could move them either in or out....or to have say, one additional accent cymbal in the middle, for that occasional crash when there are no vocals/leads in the center. It would just give them some more variety.
In some kits they have dual L/R sets, with one pair being a bit more inside, and the other hard L/R...but again it's all in the OH, so it's kind a set.
With the drums, you can easily pan them a bit more, even though they are also in the OH tracks...so you can "fudge" their position a bit compared to the cymbals.
Of course...I get it...it's a recording of a drum kit. So you get what you get. It just seems that in all the sample packs, the cymbals are always hard L/R....which is actually good for most mixes...just saying I wish that sometimes I could move them a bit without messing with the rest of the OH stuff. :)


Oh...for the grooves...just go to your groove window in SD....find a groove...drag-n-drop onto a MIDI track.





mjbphotos said:
EZD2 You can then tune (the pitch control is very sensitive - just a little tweak will work)
Click to expand...

Yeah...I don't even bother trying to turn the pitch control....I'm manually entering the numerical values using the decimal point. :D
I have NO idea why they even bothered to include such dramatic pitch changes....IOW, they could have made the control less sensitive with less +/- swing...but I guess the idea was to let people get as extreme as they could, and of course, the player controls are only so big, so when you move that mouse they can jump a lot more than you wanted.
 
The big difference between EZD & SD to me is the bleed, you can control every part of it, on just about every mic, plus, there are more mic choices in SD than EZD, which might be a good thing, but could also be an Achilles heel too...There are more instrument choices in SD too, but like the bleed, that could be good or bad....

miroslav said:
SD is just more surgical and it lets you get past any processing that they may have pre-applied to the samples.
Also...while velocity can do one thing...it still requires a certain overall volume setting. IOW, just lowering velocity isn't the same as lowering volume and vice versa. I mean, yeah lower velocity = lower volume...but it also changes the attack...and sometimes you just want lower volume and not mess with the attack....or the other way around.
Click to expand...
Exactly, less velocity does = less volume, but it changes the sound of the hit(s)...There are several ways to adjust the volume of individual pieces in SD...

miroslav said:
The only thing that I wish I could do that SD can't...is to move the cymbal positions.
They are purely done with the OH mics...and while you can pan/shift the OH track, it also moves all the other things.
IOW....with a real live kit setup...you could simply walk over to the kit and move the cymbals a bit.
While I do generally like the cymbal positions that the OH track provides...mostly hard left/right....sometime I wish I could move them either in or out....or to have say, one additional accent cymbal in the middle, for that occasional crash when there are no vocals/leads in the center. It would just give them some more variety.
In some kits they have dual L/R sets, with one pair being a bit more inside, and the other hard L/R...but again it's all in the OH, so it's kind a set.
With the drums, you can easily pan them a bit more, even though they are also in the OH tracks...so you can "fudge" their position a bit compared to the cymbals.
Of course...I get it...it's a recording of a drum kit. So you get what you get. It just seems that in all the sample packs, the cymbals are always hard L/R....which is actually good for most mixes...just saying I wish that sometimes I could move them a bit without messing with the rest of the OH stuff.
Click to expand...

The "wide-pan" thing is something I hate with all drum samplers, everyone I've asked to listen to my fake drums & compare 'em to their real drums tell me the hard-panned cymbals are a dead giveaway...But, there are things you can do to the overhead track in SD, but really nothing you can do to the individual cymbals, unless you use the internal bounce inside SD itself (I think...it's been a while since I've did that, but I think you can render each cymbal on it's own track if you want, I'll have to mess with it to make sure...)...

I usually pan the oh track about 50/50, I never keep 'em all the way out like they are default...





miroslav said:
Yeah...I don't even bother trying to turn the pitch control....I'm manually entering the numerical values using the decimal point. :D
I have NO idea why they even bothered to include such dramatic pitch changes....IOW, they could have made the control less sensitive with less +/- swing...but I guess the idea was to let people get as extreme as they could, and of course, the player controls are only so big, so when you move that mouse they can jump a lot more than you wanted.
Click to expand...

I thought you could control the pitch knob better by holding shift, but apparently it doesn't work, so I type the number in manually...
 
minerman said:
... but really nothing you can do to the individual cymbals, unless you use the internal bounce inside SD itself (I think...it's been a while since I've did that, but I think you can render each cymbal on it's own track if you want, I'll have to mess with it to make sure...)...

I usually pan the oh track about 50/50, I never keep 'em all the way out like they are default...
Click to expand...

If you can figure out how to "separate" out the cymbals...you'll be my hero! :D
I don't think there is any way.

Yeah...I've also narrowed down the OH image at times...but it doesn't always work, and you start to "pull" the rest of the kit inward, which can be OK, but not always.

Thing is, when I track live drums, I actually DO tend to physically put the cymbals out wide. My drummer buddy always bitches about it :p but I don't want cymbals crashing all over the center of the song....but I do like having the occasional crashes more inside or even dead center when the song has the "space" for it.

So it's a give-n-take thing.
If I could move the SD cymbal positions, I would only do it on some stuff...otherwise harder L/R is really not a bad place for them. Listen to a lot of commercial stuff...where they end up.
When you can toss in just the occasional hits that are more centered, you break up that hard L/R repetition...and that's enough to make it sound less programmed, IMO.
 
miroslav said:
If you can figure out how to "separate" out the cymbals...you'll be my hero! :D
I don't think there is any way.
Click to expand...

You can seperate each cymbal using the "Bounce" function dude, but in order to have them panned in the center, you'll need to solo each cymbal...

I just tried it basically goofing around, but here's how I got my ride cymbal centered (instead of having it panned in the oh track):

Right click on the cymbal you wanna have centered

Solo that particular piece in the "Construction" screen (when you right-click the cymbal use the solo button in the lower right-hand corner)

Center the pan control in the oh track

Click "Bounce", & select "Bounce through mixer", & hit the "R" button in the bounce screen

Set your daw to the beginning of the song, & press play...It'll actually record the hits while your song is playing...

Before you hit "Bounce" in the pop-up dialog (where the "R" & "Bounce through mixer" buttons are), you need to create a folder somewhere on your computer for Superior to send the files to...

Hit "Bounce" & select that folder when SD asks

You can then open that folder, & drop the tracks into your daw...

The big downside about doing it this way is you mess with your panning in the oh track (you'd most likely have it set how you want it), along with the ambience/room mics...The ambience/room mics will still "bounce", but again, you lose the panning you had in your kit's mix, but, after doing this, you'll be able to drop these tracks into your daw, & pan them however you want...

Lemme know if this works for you or not...
 
Hmmmmmm....I'll check that out.

Yeah...I always bounce out all the tracks so I can dump them to my tape deck....but I never tried soloing a cymbal and then bouncing the OH track.
Doesn't all the other OH stuff come with that bounce....?

I know when I bounce my OH tracks, it's everything. I didn't think using the solo butotn would only yield the soloed cymbal...but if that works...I can deal with it. It will be something I can add as a variation.
 
miroslav said:
Hmmmmmm....I'll check that out.

Yeah...I always bounce out all the tracks so I can dump them to my tape deck....but I never tried soloing a cymbal and then bouncing the OH track.
Doesn't all the other OH stuff come with that bounce....?

I know when I bounce my OH tracks, it's everything. I didn't think using the solo butotn would only yield the soloed cymbal...but if that works...I can deal with it. It will be something I can add as a variation.
Click to expand...

Yeah dude, when I solo'd the ride cymbal, it rendered 4 (I think, can't remember exactly how many) tracks...If you don't name your outputs in Superior's mixer (scroll all the way to the master outputs, they're red), you'll be guessing what track is what, it'll only have like "output 15/16" or whatever mixer in Superior has for their names...If you name your oh track, you can figure it out pretty easily...

Be sure you solo the instrument itself too, not the oh track in the mixer, remember to right-click on whichever cymbal you wanna render, & solo it in the "Construction" page of the gui, in the lower right-hand corner....

I think when you bounce with an instrument solo'd, it renders all the tracks/channels that particular instrument goes through (like amb, oh, amb mono, etc)...IE: If you solo your ride cymbal, & it goes through the tom mic's bleed, I think it'll render the bleed too...There may be a way to render just the raw, dry cymbal track, but I'll have to do some more digging/experimenting....

Just remember to check "Bounce through mixer" to get the pan, solo, etc, because if you don't, it'll just render the tracks however the mics have picked them up...

While it's a lot of trouble to do this just to have your cymbal(s) centered in a track, it's pretty useful in a way, just because of the ability to do it...

For example, if you have one particular cymbal you really like, but it's panned the opposite side that you want it on in the kit, this would take care of that...

To be honest, this is something I've just figured out myself...I have used the bounce function before, but never like this, & it's good to know all these options are there if needed....

Superior's the shizzle compared to EZ Drummer IMHO...:thumbs up:.
 
I never saw a grooves window in SD, but that'll help quite a bit! I was having to add EZD even if I didn't really want to use it, just to get the grooves. :drunk:

So, as far as velocity goes, I'll just say again that if you set up that kit with those mics in those positions, the only way to change to relative volumes between various kit pieces in the overhead tracks is if the drummer hits the damn things differently. Yes, that will change the attack and whatnot. (Not saying I haven't found uses for the individual volume control in SD, but that's been kind of special cases)

You can bounce whatever you want any way you want via your DAW if you stop and think about it for a second. I mean, if you split the individual MIDI hits off to separate tracks, and take the individual mics out to separate audio tracks, and just go to town muting and soloing and bouncing whatever. A lot of times I will end up with two actual instances of EZ/SD on separate tracks, often with the same kit loaded, with just the cymbals coming from one, and the rest of the kit from the other. That's not maybe the "best" way to do it, but it can be quicker and easier than the other ways.
 
OK...so I checked it out...and yeah, if you solo the instrument in the construct window, it does eliminate the other stuff in the OH track, but if you pan the OH track to center, you screw with the OH ambience balance.
IOW, you are not just moving the cymbal to the center, you are shrinking the room ambience from stereo to mono.

Hey...but it's still a nice little "trick" that can provide some variations, and blended in with the other L/R cymbal stuff...it would be OK.
I think I would then set up say 3-4 cymabls...leave one pair default L/R...then do the solo/bounce thing to the other 1-2, and blend them back into the mix as seperate audio tracks in the DAW, and then just pan them where I want them.
I could even add a little more ambience to them with the DAW FX, and that would get them back into more the stereo kit vibe.

Funny...I never bothered with the solo button in the construct window...heck, you almost can't see the damn thing it's so tiny and gray. :D


Sent you some files....
 
ashcat_lt said:
So, as far as velocity goes, I'll just say again that if you set up that kit with those mics in those positions, the only way to change to relative volumes between various kit pieces in the overhead tracks is if the drummer hits the damn things differently. Yes, that will change the attack and whatnot. (Not saying I haven't found uses for the individual volume control in SD, but that's been kind of special cases)

You can bounce whatever you want any way you want via your DAW if you stop and think about it for a second.
Click to expand...

I only set the overall volume in the mixer window...and that's mostly for Kick/Snare/Hat, as I don't always like the level balance they gave with the kit.
Then, I may also set individual instrument levels in the construct window.
Finally...I will mess with the velocity in my MIDI editor.
Also...keep in mind that the Humanize options also are "messing" with both your velocities and your timing.

Just saying that it's not all going to be controlled by the velocity setting per note.
IOW...you change volume same as you would change your mic level for a given drum...so it's not just about asking the drummer to hit louder or softer.


Yeah...you can bounce whatever you want, but you have to keep mind the OH tracks and any amb/room tracks that you might include. They set the position of the instruments...so while you can pan those bounced tracks, there still has to be some relative connection to the OH and ambiance/room tracks....otherwise, your kit will start to "blur"...
...and, you can't really lose the OH, as that IMO often has the heart of the kit sound, and the individual instrument tracks are just filler.
 
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