Rhyme Genie & TuneSmith vs MasterWriter

Rhyming doesn't change by accent/regional pronunciation? C'mon.
For the most part, no, in song. In poetry, yes.

Australian Eng vs UK Eng has a wide range of differences. Melbourne to Sydney has significant differences. The differences matter if the rhyme isn't based on the last letter if nothing else.
Route is ROOT in Aust & ROWT in US.
Both pronunciations are correct and used in the US.

Most folk across the globe will accept US pronunciation as OK because they've suffered the slings & arrows of Cultural Imperialism through cowboy & indian TV but folk also change their pronunciation of words to match the US if they hope to have a non regional radio hit. It's rather like modern letter writing: the Windows Word format has almost completely eradicated the indented paragraph & other features taught up until the late 80's in favour of what Word prefers & has set as default.
Sorry, but what you say is neither true of singing, nor of changes to written style that you attribute to Word.

English is often sung in the faux American accent because of exposure & expectation. I know many, many people who sing in their own voice, accent & regional version of English.
Americans sing in "song English" rather than Standard American because it's a natural concomitant of singing on pitch, elision and sustains. This is true of all English speakers, regardless of dialect, and was true long before there was radio and television, much less the internet. There are, of course, singers who intentionally elect to sing in a dialect.

A Rhyming dictionary that provides more words yet the words may not be used, in a dictionary have a readily discernible meaning is better than one that provides fewer albeit more useful words?
I have no idea what this sentence means. I'd rather have more options than fewer. As for "readily discernible meaning," I would expect anyone attempting to write, whether it be lyrics, poetry or prose, to have a sufficient command of the language, including a sufficiently large vocabulary, as to encompass all but obscure, arcane or technical words of a language. As for whether those words should be used, that is solely a question of the target audience. If I was writing for children, I'd severely limit the scope of the vocabulary used in lyrics. If I was writing for a poorly-educated demographic, I'd also limit the scope of the vocabulary employed. If I was writing for a reasonably well-educated demographic, I would have fewer, if any, limitations.

Size matters then.
Always.

We don't KNOW that Bills creations were readily, immediately understood in the swill pit do we?
Of course we do. If they weren't, people wouldn't have attended. Shakespeare wrote for his own company and, occasionally, for other companies (and other companies simply staged his plays on their own).
The theater in Shakespeare's time was a populist theater. It, along with bear-baiting and ratting and cock fighting, was, for all intents and purposes, the only entertainment game in town. Shakespeare wrote to please his audience so they would buy tickets and attend his company's performance. That is how he and the players earned their living. It is not coincidence, but rather smart marketing that he called one of his comedies, "As You Like It." Shakespeare wrote for the Elizabethan masses, not for scholars.

You can get by in French & can rely on your knowledge of how words are pronounced in that language. Mt experience of French suggests that it's not THAT straight forward.
I've been told by French people that my accent is quite good, though perhaps they were being polite. However, you miss my point which was this: a rhyming dictionary is not intended as a tool for someone who is not fluent in the language in which it's written. It's a tool for poets and song writers who write in the same language as the dictionary. I have no reason to write lyrics in French, nor would I attempt to do so. I write for the English-speaking stage. If, by some miracle, one of my shows ever succeeds to the point where it will see productions in other countries, the task of translating my lyrics will fall to someone else.

"Methinks he doth protest too much" comes to mind having read you essay.
Au contraire, you are the one doing the protesting. You appear to ascribe little value to rhyming dictionaries. However, your objections to them do not appear to be well-taken.

Language is fluid, language decays, is emboldened and raised up by beauty. It is studied, muddied, sullied and glorified. Most generations look back linguistically with some nostalgia once they are on the 2nd half of their nascent journey.
Of course language is fluid -- that's exactly what I said in the post to which you've replied. As for which half of my "nascent journey" (and I think you're using the word "nascent" incorrectly) I find myself, there is a reason why my screen name identifies me as a "Senior" senior member.
 
It's French. And I'm not wrong.

I didn't say you were, I just simply provided a link to a dictionary. And you are correct, the problem I think most of us (me) have is we don't fully understand the sentence. I went and looked in up in a dictionary I have published in the 1800's (I don't fully trust the Internet).
 
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Hum, "pique"? I don't know how your vanity would be wounded from your curiosity. But I still have much to learn.
I'm beginning to feel like I'm back teaching university again. :)

Pique can be a noun or a verb, and it's meaning changes depending on how it is used.

As a noun, you can "stomp off in a fit of pique," meaning that you depart having taken umbrage and in a state of high dudgeon.

As a verb, you can, "have your interest piqued," meaning that your interest was provoked and stimulated.

Armistice is absolutely correct in his usage of the word. DM60, I'm sorry, but I must give you a zero for the quiz. ;)
 
I'm beginning to feel like I'm back teaching university again. :)

Pique can be a noun or a verb, and it's meaning changes depending on how it is used.

As a noun, you can "stomp off in a fit of pique," meaning that you depart having taken umbrage and in a state of high dudgeon.

As a verb, you can, "have your interest piqued," meaning that your interest was provoked and stimulated.

Armistice is absolutely correct in his usage of the word. DM60, I'm sorry, but I must give you a zero for the quiz. ;)
Please refer to my later post.
 
I have a lovely copy Webster's Rhyming Dictionary, the 1980 reprint, my cherished Roget's Thesaurus Maxibook1982 reprint and of course, I repeat, and of course my much loved The Concise Oxford Dictionary 1958 reprint at my right hand when I begin to edit & recaste the scribble I write as lyric.
Don't you love a discussion that isn't because it's a lecture?
"For the most part" is an equivocation - rather a step down from the declaration that preceded it.
OK, I'll rephrase/hedge my bets & step down the from my soap box of my previous dogma with the addemdum "...in my experience."
Simply put I - disagree with much that you've put forward as fact. It reads as opinion, but that's fine because this is an internet forum and no one will require footnotes & citations let alone a minimum of three cross references for each point.
I'll now depart the scene in a pit of fique having eeked my interest and slowly devolving into a short order of Unwinese: "Reunitey in the heavenly-bode – Deep Joy!"
 
You might find these articles both interesting (and instructive):

Why do many British (and other nationalities) singers sound American when they sing? | A conversation on TED.com

The Grammarphobia Blog: Why UK singers sound American

The answer lies in the way people are trained to sing. We learn vowel sounds, particularly in singing, in a way that allows us to project them to a loud audience. That means that the front of the mouth needs to be more open than it is in speech so it’s a bit like a megaphone. The vowels take on a different sound in terms of their timbre which is really what accent is. Therefore the vowels are being placed in a position for singing which is not the same as speech…

Sing away your accent | langsoc.eusa.ed.ac.uk
 
Ugh... this thread makes me sad. I mean, use this software if you'd like... but theres something to be said for being a master of language. this kinda takes the fun out of it. have you read 1984? would you buy a lyric writing machine if they had one?

There are websites that allow you to search rhymes, i use them on occasion, but i try not to. Songs should reflect the writer, not a rhyme dictionary.

but, this isn't what you want to hear. Sorry to interrupt.
 
Ugh... this thread makes me sad. I mean, use this software if you'd like... but theres something to be said for being a master of language. this kinda takes the fun out of it. have you read 1984? would you buy a lyric writing machine if they had one?

There are websites that allow you to search rhymes, i use them on occasion, but i try not to. Songs should reflect the writer, not a rhyme dictionary.

but, this isn't what you want to hear. Sorry to interrupt.
It's not a question of what I want to hear, but my belief that you are dead wrong. No, I wouldn't buy a lyric writing machine if such a thing existed.

I write musical theater. The demands of lyrics and music for the musical stage are completely different than for other musical forms and, particularly, popular music. In musical theater, songs are part of the action, as is the music, and both must advance the story. Lyrics must be in the voice of the character who sings them. Both music and lyrics in theater function entirely different than in a pop song. This is why no pop composer has ever written a successful musical (with the exception of a very few who also have had extensive theater experience). Even Paul Simon, one of the greatest popular lyricists and composers of the 20th century, failed miserably when he tried to write a musical -- his "Cape Man" ran for only a week before closing to horrible notices.

Stephen Sondheim, acknowledged as the greatest lyricist and composer of the musical stage -- Sweeney Todd, West Side Story, A Little Night Music, A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum, among many others -- uses both a rhyming dictionary and a thesaurus. Oscar Hammerstein, lyricist who shaped the American Broadway Stage -- Oklahoma, The King and I, Carousel -- used both a rhyming dictionary and a thesaurus. Stephen Schwartz -- Pippin, Wicked -- uses a rhyming dictionary.

I doubt any of them have an interest in a lyric writing machine, either. I'm sure they would be surprised to learn that you think their work sounds like it came out of Orwell's futuristic totalitarian society. Of course, I have to wonder if you even know why they are.

As for being a "master of language," I have a BA, MFA and PhD (ABD), all in theater, as well as a JD, and I earn my living as a lawyer, writing pleadings, conducting trials, and arguing before various appellate courts in the U.S. I would be happy to match my "mastery" of English against yours any time you like.

And, finally, I'll tell you what I find sad: the assumption by many on this site that the universe of music is limited to popular songs of the sort downloaded from iTunes or traded as torrents. I also find particularly sad the assumption that, not only is there one kind of music, but there is only one way to write it. That kind of arrogance in someone who pretends to being a creative artist is very sad, indeed.

"Songs should reflect the writer, not a rhyme dictionary"? You haven't a clue.

But this isn't what you want to hear, is it?
 
Stephen Sondheim, acknowledged as the greatest lyricist and composer of the musical stage -- Sweeney Todd, West Side Story, A Little Night Music, A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum, among many others -- uses both a rhyming dictionary and a thesaurus. Oscar Hammerstein, lyricist who shaped the American Broadway Stage -- Oklahoma, The King and I, Carousel -- used both a rhyming dictionary and a thesaurus. Stephen Schwartz -- Pippin, Wicked -- uses a rhyming dictionary.
"Songs should reflect the writer, not a rhyme dictionary"? You haven't a clue.

To be a great lyricist, while commanding the language is important, one must use ever tool they can to achieve the objective. We do the same thing in recording with our plug ins, EQs, delay, reverb, etc.

I will use what I can (both musically and lyrically) and let people judge the results. Good is good and I'm not sure why it has to be a certain way or it is trash.

This is almost becoming the analog vs. digital thread.
 
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