Recording Band Live Sound with Allen & Heath Mixer

wesc

wesc

New member
Hi all,

So, our band is growing, and we're playing more gigs. I've been reading various articles on recording our live sound, but I'm still a bit confused about the best way to do it. Until now, I’ve purely focused on getting a great live sound, but now I really want to start recording each channel separately so we can play around with mixing and editing later in post.

I recently got my hands on an Allen & Heath ZED-22FX Live Mixer, which is a big upgrade from my current Behringer Xenyx mixer. It's greatly improved our live sound and has given us more inputs. Now, I’m eager to figure out how to use it for recording.

I read this article on recording live sound from a mixing board, and it mentioned using a multi-channel interface to connect each channel from the mixer via the ‘inserts’ to the respective channel on the interface. My mixer doesn't have direct-outs for each channel, so I’m trying to work out how to use the inserts for effective recording.

Here's where I'm a bit stuck and have a few questions:
  1. What multi-channel interface do people recommend? I just need something simple to capture the raw sound from each channel, nothing fancy. I need 16 channels, ideally. A friend suggested the Behringer UMC1820, which has 8 inputs and can be expanded to 16 channels with the ADAT input, but that means getting two interfaces (which might be cumbersome?).
  2. What cables do I need to make the connection? Can I use standard TRS 1/4 inch jacks, or do I need special ‘insert cables’ (1/4 inch to dual 1/4 inch)?
    1. If it's insert cables, does the recording interface need to have matching inputs and outputs (as I assume the cable needs to loop back into the interface)?
    2. Or if it's just regular jacks, I’m assuming the only output required is the USB connection to my computer.
    3. And should I follow the advice on this forum about putting the jacks in only till the first click?
  3. The article linked above also mentions patch bays. What are those, and do I really need one for this setup?
  4. Will using inserts cause any noise since they're unbalanced? (I guess using short cables to the interface could help negate that, though).
Basically, I want to use my Allen & Heath ZED-22FX mixer to record each of its 16 channels onto my computer for mixing later on.

Am I asking too much? 😂

Thanks a lot for your help in advance! Any advice is invaluable.

Wes
 
Sorry, I also forgot to mention that I'm aware the ZED-22FX has a USB direct out on the board itself, but that only records the main mix in stereo. I'm looking to get multi-tracks of each input.
 
First question is to ask if you actually use the inserts for anything. If you don't, then it's very easy. The insert jack plug, when inserted uses the tip and ring connection to get audio out, processes it then stuffs it back on the other connection - a straight out and then in. You just make up some cables to go to your interface with 2 circuit, unbalanced jacks on one end - for the interface, and on the other, you use the tip AND ring - you squeeze the contact tags till they touch, and also connect the inner conductor to both, solder, and then connect the ground normally. Stuffing the jack into the insert connects the out back to the in via your 'short', but your new connection to the interface just sort of sniffs what is going through - the channel audio.

If you do use inserts for FX, then you basically need to remote out the combination insert connection to two jack sockets, I use a patchbay, normalled, and then take the record feed from the top row.
 
wesc said:
  1. What multi-channel interface do people recommend? I just need something simple to capture the raw sound from each channel, nothing fancy. I need 16 channels, ideally. A friend suggested the Behringer UMC1820, which has 8 inputs and can be expanded to 16 channels with the ADAT input, but that means getting two interfaces (which might be cumbersome?).
Click to expand...
Please be aware that the UMC1820 Adat doesn't work in stand alone mode. This means that one cannot simply be plugged into another and be expected to work. The easiest way and also cheaper is to use one UMC1820 and add a ADA8200. Two interfaces will be difficult to get working on a PC. On a Mac you can do it as an aggregate device but one interface and an 8 channel Adat Preamp would be a far better option.
 
Thanks both for the replies, much appreciated.

@rob aylestone - I'm not sure I totally understand this arrangement, sorry. I'm fairly new to the whole technical side of things.

I'm not using the inserts for anything atm, so they're available. Is there an option to purchase cables or adapters that suit this arrangement, or is there nothing out there? Ideally, I'd like to be able to intercept the audio signal passing through the insert jacks without requiring any soldering or DIY work!

Alternatively, do you have any recommendations on who may be able to help with making the cables for this suggested setup? I notice you're based in Suffolk! I live in Ipswich, so let me know if we could potentially chat in person!
 
Folkcafe said:
Please be aware that the UMC1820 Adat doesn't work in stand alone mode. This means that one cannot simply be plugged into another and be expected to work. The easiest way and also cheaper is to use one UMC1820 and add a ADA8200. Two interfaces will be difficult to get working on a PC. On a Mac you can do it as an aggregate device but one interface and an 8 channel Adat Preamp would be a far better option.
Click to expand...
Great advice, thank you. I've done some research just now, and it looks straightforward. Seems if you use two optical cables and make the ADA8200 the slave, this way the clock is set from the UMC1820 and avoids any signal noise/disruption.
 
wesc said:
Thanks both for the replies, much appreciated.

@rob aylestone - I'm not sure I totally understand this arrangement, sorry. I'm fairly new to the whole technical side of things.

I'm not using the inserts for anything atm, so they're available. Is there an option to purchase cables or adapters that suit this arrangement, or is there nothing out there? Ideally, I'd like to be able to intercept the audio signal passing through the insert jacks without requiring any soldering or DIY work!

Alternatively, do you have any recommendations on who may be able to help with making the cables for this suggested setup? I notice you're based in Suffolk! I live in Ipswich, so let me know if we could potentially chat in person!
Click to expand...
You can solder your own or purchase insert cables. The main thing is you'll be using them differently than a typical insert cable. The cable itself is a Y cable using a TRS (Tip-Ring-Sleeve) connector on one end and two TS (Tip-Sleeve) on the other. The tip is return and ring is send on the TRS. On the insert of the board, you will only partially insert the connector till the first click. This will engage the send without a corresponding return, meaning you'll take an output without interrupting the signal to the rest of the mixer. Where it is different is that your send signal is on the return connector (Tip) of the premade cable. So you won't have signal on the side marked send.

Soldering is a pretty easy skill to learn and with just basic skills and care, you'll end up with lengths you want and often a better product in the end.
 
wesc said:
I'm guessing there isn't the option of a 16-channel interface? :)
Click to expand...
I have an A&H “ICE 16”. 16 inputs and 16 outputs. It will work as a stand alone and records 16 channel to an SD card or a SSD.

Also functions as an interface, but I don’t use mine as an interface
 
I hate the half pushed in solution, so damn unreliable if you stand any risk of knocking them.
I'm actually in oulton broad, so could knock up a set for you - just let me know.
 
RFR said:
I have an A&H “ICE 16”. 16 inputs and 16 outputs. It will work as a stand alone and records 16 channel to an SD card or a SSD.

Also functions as an interface, but I don’t use mine as an interface
Click to expand...
Wow that looks like a really cool machine, never heard of it before!
 
Serendipity Records said:
Wow that looks like a really cool machine, never heard of it before!
Click to expand...
Been out for a while, not sure if they’re still made but you can find them on eBay.

The unit itself has no preamps. It just straight A>D and D>A converters. It’s perfect for using if you have a mixing board. Good boards generally have better preamps than an interface.

I’ve done live sound off of a board in rehearsals and then I dump all the wav files into my daw. Works great.
My main use for mine is for transferring 16 track tape recordings into my daw. All 16 tracks get simultaneously dumped in my daw. No lining up tracks, just dump them all in. One shot.,

I’m very happy with it.
 
RFR said:
Been out for a while, not sure if they’re still made but you can find them on eBay.
Click to expand...
Great suggestion RFR. That is exactly what I'm looking for, a no-frills way of capturing the live sound in WAV. The UMC1820 and ADA8200 would, of course, work as well, but with the A&H ICE16, you're only dealing with one console, no need for a PC, and from the same brand as my mixer :). After A LOT of research, it seems they're discontinued, and I can't find a single online shop selling a new one (even eBay etc), but I did find one on Reverb.com, made a silly offer and got it accepted! So I now have that one the way! Thanks.
 
rob aylestone said:
I hate the half pushed in solution, so damn unreliable if you stand any risk of knocking them.
I'm actually in oulton broad, so could knock up a set for you - just let me know.
Click to expand...
Rob, this is awesome. Thanks for the offer, I'll PM you if that's ok.
 
Thanks for all your help you good people, much appreciated!! I love the internet when it's like this.
 
For a little more than the cost of a used ICE-16 you could get an A&H QU-SB digital mixer. Add a used Wi-Fi router, a basic tablet and some fast USB thumb drives and you've got a much simpler live recording setup plus a far more capable mixer. Selling your analog mixer will offset a lot of the cost of the Qu-SB.

Back in ancient times, I used to record multitrack from the inserts of my Mackie 1604 VLZ Pro. Since I was using the inserts for compressors, I simply put a 1/4" splitter at each compressor input, one branch coming from the insert and the other splitting off to an input of my Alesis HD24. I could also capture my live mix onto a pair of tracks from the main inserts, which weren't being used. The "one-click" method works pretty well on the Mackie because its ring contacts are strongly sprung, but it's still a little risky. My solution was to cut 1/4" long pieces of 1/4" inside-diameter fuel hose and place it on the 1/4" plug as a spacer to keep the plug from getting pushed in too far. That worked really well.

Building proper "insert tap" cables is better. They have a TRS plug on one end with tip and ring shorted (to form the loopback that is normally done inside the TRS socket when nothing is plugged in). That is connected to the tip of a TS at the other end. But seriously, the Qu-SB is by far the best solution.
 
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