Recording acoustic guitar, 2 mic configuration. One nice SDC, the other???

Dusty Ol' Bones

Dusty Ol' Bones

Full of green dust
So I wasn't sure if this question should be in the Recording Acoustic Guitar thread. In that thread the consensus seems to be aiming two mikes at the soundhole from different directions. Of course there is nothing wrong with this technique, but it is not the only way. I wish to position one mic at an angle pointing from the outside toward the bridge, so sort of in the general direction of the soundhole but aimed directly at the bridge. The other mic is positioned likewise pointing from the headstock end toward the 12th fret, once again in the direction of the soundhole but aimed directly at fret 12. Below is a screensnip of a stock magazine pic from google image search that demonstrates what I am talking about.

guitar record 2 mic.JPG
Now that mic placement is out of the way, I actually do have a question. I already own a Shure SM81 SDC that has done very well as a stand alone for recording acoustic guitar. Now that I want to begin recording my instrument with two mikes, I would like to know if y'all have recommendations of which second SDC I should invest in. I want a pair of SDCs but it doesn't matter to me if they are a matched pair. The SM81 was a little pricey for my budget when I bought it 14-15 years ago and even moreso now. Spending no more than $200, hopefully less, what do you think would make a nice complement to the SM81 while not sacrificing too much quality?

When I speak of quality, I don't want something that is cheaply made and will fall apart in 6 months. Something that sounds good and will last a while but may be a little underrated due to smaller name recognition or lesser known reputation. I don't even care if it's another lower priced Shure. Am I being too cheap or does such a thing exist?

Thanks!
 
The AKG P170 does not get mentioned at all often in forums but I have had a pair* (not matched) for ten years and they have served me well.
Decent sensitivity of 15mV/pa and the noise level of 19dB is a little lower than many SDCs at this price point of just under US $99.

*Mine are actually P150s but same animal. the P170 is a little later and better and has a 20dB pad instead of 10dB.

Dave.
 
I've never subscribed to that weird way of recording - with two mics aimed at the sound hole. I think it probably evolved from the fact that the mic coming in from the strap button end 'overspills' and captures the neck sound, while the other one coming in from the tuning end captures the bridge sound. If I use two, then I spread them out, and like you, certainly don't need a matched pair, or even the same model. Pick them for the sound you want.

With your Shure, which is a nice mic, but more sort of neutral in tone, maybe the next mic should have a character. A mellow mic if you feel the Shure is too bright, or an even brighter one if you feel you need more top end?

If it helps - even the cheap ones tend to be made well enough to not fall apart. After experience of far too many - the things that happen often are faults after mechanical damage. So drops and bangs mainly. Very few change from what they are when new. I have had some get noisy when used outside - including an AKG C414 so not just cheap mics, but in general - if you like the sound of a certain cheap mic, I doubt you will ever have to worry.

The snag is simply testing before buying. People's reviews do give a clue. If buying unbranded or unheard of mics worries you - then brands such as EV, Shure, Audio Technics and others have budget ranges - som to avoid in them all, but most are pretty usable. If you don't want to record real stereo, then two different models isn't a problem, but if this is the case, I'd seriously suggest a large diaphragm 2nd mic - as the character of these is very different. Why another small one? Work out the 'sound' you would like, pick one from reviews, and send it back if it doesn't work for you. The worst mics I review - and those I sell off cheap on ebay, often generate replies in feedback saying "I really like this mic - it suits my XYZ really well" - I hated it, he loved it! A few - a really small few are dreadful. Most just sound wrong for the purchaser.

My favourite SDC is still the ancient AKG 451. I just like the sound. One mic I really do like is a Beyer M201 dynamic which I often use where a condenser would be more normal. They are a warm, selective mic - I'd happily put one next to a 451 on an acoustic guitar with a decent player (not me). 451 on the neck side, 201 on the sound hole side - makes the differences stand out so when you blend them, the guitar sounds great.
 
Rob, the "two mic" technique that I read of most often is one on the body/neck join and one on the lower bout. You then get a choice of 'brightness and detail' and 'body'.

I had thought to suggest a dynamic (or ribbon SLURP!) but don't know the OP's interface? If guitar is quiet he might suffer some pre amp noise. However, decent dynamics can now be had for $40 and a Fethead for a bit less than that.

Just a thought...with any multiple mic setup make dead bang sure all mic are same phase and check cables are as well!

Dave.
 
If you aim a mic at the sound hole of a Martin style Dreadnaught, it's gonna "woof out". Personally I prefer an AT4033 aimed at the neck/body joint for that. Classical style guitars is another subject all together.
 
I use one at 12th fret angled towards sound hole and one at lower bout method. I've got a cheap set of SDCs, and A/B-ed them with two LDCs and found little to no difference, except my LDCs are better and have more defined high end, so that's what I use now. And I only use 2 mics when the acoustic guitar is going to be the principle instrument in the mix.
 
In a sense, you have answered your own question: you say you like what the Shure SM81 does in your situation.

You have to address your preferences before thinking of a "different" mic: what sound are you after?

Two identical Shures will give a unity of soundscape that one Shure and some other random SDC likely won't.
If you want a different direction, then combining an LDC or a ribbon with the Shure is another viable way of presenting the instrument.

This, to me, makes more sense than sitting between "two chairs" with two mics that are similar, yet not the same.
If you want contrast and blend with two distinctly different mics, go for it.
If not, I'd save for another Shure, have an 'even' set and do the various spaced pair/over the shoulder or other setups with those.

Just my 2 cents,
C.
 
Yeah, that picture doesn't look like something that would sound great, as in too much soundhole "woof" to tame, but you never know until you try - different rooms, different guitars, players, even 10° of mic angle can make a difference. The mics are a bit close, too, so lots of "technical" noise likely going to be on the track. (Whether it matters in the end depends on what else is going on.)

Personally, I found that having a pair of the same mic ("matched" or not) is just easier to use, though I worked with an unmatched pair for a while, it's got a potential for some issues if you use it on something with a wider stereo image than a single guitar. Of course, people mix mics on a single guitar or cabinet all the time, but I would say if you plan to do a wide pan of the tracks, you want those mics to be more alike than different. I see a few used SM81s for under $300 on Reverb that are accepting offers. You can always lowball and see if you can get one for $200 "out-the-door" but there's also the PGA81 that gets decent nods under $150, new. After that, just read reviews. I've used Audio-Technica (4051a and 450 - very *unmatched* so not good for wide image panning) small condensers and a "matched pair" of Studio Projects with success.
 
ecc83 said:
The AKG P170 does not get mentioned at all often in forums but I have had a pair* (not matched) for ten years and they have served me well.
Decent sensitivity of 15mV/pa and the noise level of 19dB is a little lower than many SDCs at this price point of just under US $99.

*Mine are actually P150s but same animal. the P170 is a little later and better and has a 20dB pad instead of 10dB.

Dave.
Click to expand...
I have a pair of the P170s. They are good mics. I've use the P170s for recording acoustic guitar, and they even worked well for vocals. I haven't used the Shure, so I can't say how it would pair with the AKG.

I've also got a matched pair of Rode M5s. They are a touch lighter in the low end which works well with my Taylor Dreadnought.

I have also used a M/S setup for acoustic guitar and quite liked the way it sounds. Get a 3 pattern LDC, like a MK300, Studio Project B3, Warm 47Jr, or AKG P420. The mics were about 3 ft away. It was a surprise to me, as I don't think it's a typical use for that style of recording.
 
Hey, thanks everyone for the generous feedback. I have a lot to think about.

I see some votes are split along the spectrum of "make it a matched pair".... "make it an unmatched pair of SDCs" .... and "need more texture, use a LDC." Like I said, I really appreciate everyone's input and these comparisons are much food for thought.

Some more about my equipment: For my upcoming project, probably 75% of the recordings will be fingerpicked solo guitar with vocals. In the past I used a LDC for vocals and the SDC for guitar. The guitar is an OM and sounds more even than say a dreadnought with boomy bass. I will be using a Behringer 4 channel firewire interface (FCA-1616). Current mikes are Rode NT1000 for vocals and Shure SM81 for instrument. The music is folky, not very flashy. Mostly open chords, couple barre chords here and there but no up the neck leads/fillers. Everything is recorded live, so no going back later and adding anything.

As for what sound I am looking for, I'm not really sure. Maybe just simple. I don't play like Tommy Emmanuel or sing like Robert Plant so I don't feel the need for pizzazz. I don't want the vocals to drown out the guitar nor do I want the guitar to overshadow the vocals. I just want everything to blend nicely. Simple.
 
If you record vocals and guitar at the same time you will have plenty of bleed and that can make balancing a little more difficult, so plan to experiment with mic placement. I usually record both together and am able to keep the bleed manageable so balance is easy to do. It can limit some of the other things you might normally do to a single track, but very workable if you're not trying to get crystal recordings of each. I rarely use an LDC for my voice anymore in those cases, though, because a dynamic helps with the bleed problem. And, I usually only use a single SDC on my guitar. I'm not trying for a huge sound-scape though. I put the two mics slightly off center, then feed them to the reverb aux (on a stereo bus) and let that spread things around.

If you record guitar and vocals separately, you can mix the mics you have and see how it works - always good to know what you can do with what you have so you can have a better idea of what you're not able to do, i.e., to better inform the choice that gets you something you'll actually use. My 2¢.
 
Pairs and especially matched pairs point to stereo recordings, and I don't mean two mics on a guitar, that's two channel, and there's a big difference. With any acoustic instrument that has it's sound produced by a variety of means and areas - the most appropriate mic for the sound. So for me, two nice mics, of different types is OK on an acoustic, unless the idea is to capture the room too - like an acoustic guitar in a church - That for me is two identical mics. Close miked in a deader acoustic like a studio, I'd be happy with two different ones. Identical for piano seems best, as do things like xyzlos and marimbas.
 
I've said this many a time, but for me, as long as the acoustic guitar sounds like an acoustic guitar, and as long as it isn't warbling or wobbling, then I'm fine with it.
I've used so many different combinations of mics and positions ¬¬>> 2 SDCs, an SDC and a LDC, 2 dynamics, one dynamic, one condenser, a condenser and a dynamic, the "point to the body + point at the 12th fret," the "point to the top of the neck and the other one behind you, pointing downwards," pointing to the wood of the body, but away from the soundhole, even pointing at the soundhole, but 3 times the distance, with the other mic in some other location, either close or distant, etc, etc, etc. None of my mics {except possibly the SM58 and AKG C1000} would stand a chance of getting onto the Hollymic walk of fame. But they all record whatever is put before them.
They still all sound like acoustic guitar to me once they've been recorded ! The caveat is that I'm a lousy guitarist, so I make any and every way work for me.
 
Thanks again for the additional insights. I created this thread with the intention of feeding some GAS by shopping for a mic. Now I'm talking myself out of it and considering using what I already have to the best of my ability. I feel I have decent condenser mikes and I even have a SM58 in my toolbox.

How about this as a setup? LDC or SM58 for vocals depending on bleed, SDC pointed at 12th fret area, and the guitar's pickup plugged in. The pickup is a k&k pure mini piezo. That's two different textures for the guitar and then vocals.
 
ecc83 said:
Rob, the "two mic" technique that I read of most often is one on the body/neck join and one on the lower bout. You then get a choice of 'brightness and detail' and 'body'.

I had thought to suggest a dynamic (or ribbon SLURP!) but don't know the OP's interface? If guitar is quiet he might suffer some pre amp noise. However, decent dynamics can now be had for $40 and a Fethead for a bit less than that.

Just a thought...with any multiple mic setup make dead bang sure all mic are same phase and check cables are as well!

Dave.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your comments. How do I check to see if all my mikes and cables are the same phase? If I test them and they are not the same phase, how is it corrected?
 
I haven't seen any big issues with mics being out of phase electrically. That could easily be dealt with by flipping the phase in your DAW (most have a phase invert button). Do a quick test and flip the phase. If you hear weird cancellation, then just flip it back and you're good,

Depending on your placement, you can get some issues with cancellation at certain frequencies. You want the mics to be relatively the same distance from the guitar. However, if you are pointing at different parts of the guitar, that may not make a lot of difference.

One thing to remember when you are setting things up is to use the null of your mic pattern to minimize the bleed. Cardioids don't pick up a lot from the back so if you can have the back of your vocal mic pointing down, it will minimize some of the guitar pickup. I've heard of people using a figure 8 mic for vocals because the null point is on the side of the capsule or ribbon, which is where the guitar should sit. Play with placement, record, then listen. Rinse and Repeat until you get what you want. Don't just throw up two mics and hit record.
 
Dusty Ol' Bones said:
Thank you for your comments. How do I check to see if all my mikes and cables are the same phase? If I test them and they are not the same phase, how is it corrected?
Click to expand...
You can check your cables with the continuity function on a Digital Multi Meter and anyone who has cables and batteries for their hobby should have one! An XLR mic cable should read very low resistance, half an Ohm, pin to pin i.e. 1 to 1, 2 to 2 and so on. Signal is on pins 2 and 3 and if reversed, 2 goes to 3 then the cable is "Out Of Phase" * This is very, very unlikely for store bought cables.

To check mics, strap them together (lakky band is favourite) plug into AI and using a music source such as a hi fi or telly, set levels to match. Switch tracks to mono in DAW. If mics are 'OOP' there will be a big drop in level and the sound will be 'thin'. Again, a very unlikely problem but 'it do'appen.

*YES!I know technical bods! The correct term is "polarity" but while most peeps on forums STILL insist on using the over 100 years redundant term "condenser" for capacitor mics I shall, for clarity keep to "phase"!

BTW, if anyone is doing PA work it is worth buying or making up a phase reversing cable of say 300mm.
Dave.
 
Dusty Ol' Bones said:
How about this as a setup? LDC or SM58 for vocals depending on bleed, SDC pointed at 12th fret area, and the guitar's pickup plugged in. The pickup is a k&k pure mini piezo. That's two different textures for the guitar and then vocals.
Click to expand...
Something I've done a few times, with what I thought was a good result, was to have two mics recording the acoustic guitar as well as the guitar's pick-up plugged in, plus, a bottletop pick up 1688975975333.pngstuck somewhere on the guitar. Then, once all four sources were recorded, pan till it felt right.
Naturally, the role the acoustic guitar was going to play in the particular song determined how it would ultimately sound. But I've always found it to be a very worthwhile experiment and my ideas of how the guitar should sound may be somewhat idiosyncratic, but at the end of the day, they were on my songs. I don't know what a "good" or "premium" acoustic guitar is "supposed" to sound like. But I do know what an acoustic guitar sounds like and I know what I like.
 
Track Rat said:
If you aim a mic at the sound hole of a Martin style Dreadnaught, it's gonna "woof out". Personally I prefer an AT4033 aimed at the neck/body joint for that. Classical style guitars is another subject all together.
Click to expand...
Quite so. My son has spent quite some time experimenting with mics on his classical guitar in his flat. "Folkey/rock" acoustic guitar aside one REALLY does not listen to classical guitar at 300mm!

A few months ago we were exploring YTs for mic setups for people like Bream, Williams, Vidovic and mostly you either could not see the mics or if so, certainly could not make out types. I do not however recall any LDCs?

One fairly common setup was two SDCs (might have been omnis?) on banquet stands on the floor with the mic bodies spaced about 100mm apart and parallel to each other. That is neither fish nor fowel! Cannot be 'Co i' nor a spaced pair. I have tried to find out the reason for the setup. No definitive answers, best guess, "redundancy".

Naturally! Sod's Law has prevailed and I can no longer find those YT examples!

Dave.
 
A good mic picking up the acoustic guitar's real sound is going to top a piezo pickup - any day - unless you want that honky piezo sound. I've tried blending the pickup sound in (with Taylor pickups) and never liked it.
 
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