Pre amp gain vs tube screamer, recording guitar

[BroKen_H]

I've got a Roland cube. Transistor amp with sims inside. I've also got line 6 sims in my Reason rack. Neither of these will EVER sound as good as a cheap Fender Superchamp running about 12W out of 15, let alone a Marshall or Orange stack running flat out. If you're serious about recording for the SOUND of it, get a tube amp and scream that sucker. Period. Miro and Gerg are trying to give good answers...
You asked "What way do you prefer?" Greg answered, "Skip the sim and the tube screamer and rock your tube amp." If you wanted a different answer, ask a different question.

 

[miroslav]

But it is the same thing, example, lets say you use an iRig to play amplitube on your mac or any amp sim for that matter. The irig has a pre amp in it. If you turn it down the amp doesn't sound great at all but by turning the pre amp gain up it sounds like it should. The same exact thing happens with a tube screamer. This all happens before it's converted to digital. And then when it gets to digital, bam you got a strong signal and they sound good. If you just simply plug it in and set the amp the way you want it, it does not sound very good.

Try simply boosting the digital signal going to Amplitude....you can still make it a "strong signal" after A/D.
Like I said, use what you like....and of course, you CAN increase signal BEFORE the A/D too, but you have to watch you don't overload your interface. I'm just saying that if it's *signal strength* for Amplitude, in the digital realm you can also simply turn up the track fader.

Also...I know you think that driving Amplitube harder is the same as driving a real amp harder....and I get where your thinking is, that Amplitube is trying to simulate that over-driven amp....but it really isn't the same thing.
You don't get the reactive feel of the amp/power tubes/cab back to the guitar. Maybe that's not a significant point for some folks....but that's why sims are never the same thing as a real amp.

I'm going to have to say something here guys...

There is merit to using the right interface/pedal/device to make an amp sim sound more like a real amp.

I don't disagree with that, you can tone shape with whatever works for you, and think I've said a couple of times that whatever he's doing, if it's working for him....that's fine.

He's talking mainly about "signal strength" that hits Amplitude. He seems to think that getting a hot signal up front before A/D is the best/only way to drive Amplitude...which it can be one way, but, purely looking at it from a "signal strength" perspective, pre Amplitude....you can do the same thing after A/D by rasing your track digital level going to the sim.

The thing with the TS is that it's doing more than pure "signal strength"...it's also adding its tonal effect on the signal, which will sound different than adjusting the pre-amp gain on the interface, and certainly different than a clean signal getting boosted after A/D, pre Amplitude.
IOW....I'm just trying to point out that it's not only about "signal strength" in what he is doing with the TS.....that's it.

 

[ashcat_lt]

As much as I hate to say it, Greg is right that there are all kinds of ways to adjust the level going into the amp sim, and it doesn't really much matter which you use. I don't know Guitar Rig, but in PodFarm it really is just as easy as turning the Input knob - assuming that knob gives enough gain to get the effect you're looking for. Else you can put any damn plugin you want before the sim. You can also turn it up at the interface if it's got the gain for it. And you certainly can run a TS or a booster or a second preamp or whatever before the interface. We can talk about gain staging and signal/noise ratio, but we're talking about a big noise antenna as a source.

I don't play metal, but when I play live, and if I want to drive my amp harder for a while, I step on a booster pedal. I use the same pedal whether I'm plugging into my AC4 or my laptop, and it works about the same either way. When I'm recording, though, I prefer to use digital tools for the gain, and as soon as I work out a MIDI foot controller I'll be doing so live also. The thing about a pedal is that it's a completely destructive process. Whatever goes into that interface will be recorded. You can't go back and tweak it to better fix the mix or if you change your mind. There's nothing wrong with commitment, though.

A lot of people talk about the hi-pass action of the TubeScreamer - it "tightens up the bass" by rolling it off pretty severely so that it doesn't get as compressed and distorted at the amplifier. I would say that the low-pass action of the TS is at least as important. It rolls off a lot of the treble (and even what I'd call high mids), and just like the the lower frequencies, these higher frequencies don't end up distorting quite so much. It helps (some) to avoid that fizziness that folks were talking about getting from hitting the preamp harder, and helps retain some clarity in the pick attack. It works into a real amp, and it works into a sim and for the same reasons.

Keep that in mind as you attempt to add flat gain before whatever you're using for an amp. Consider that you can get all of that with a parametric EQ (analog or digital), but with a whole lot more control.

 

[delirium trigge]

Well, Just for the sake of argument I'm willing to provide whatever to show you that amplitube reacts the same way. The guy just said, "the amp sim makes all pickups sound the same" It doesn't. These are not amp sims that line 6 has in their spiders. These things are a lot more advanced than you are thinking they are.

I have real amps, they react the same way. The exact same way.

Pod farm is a different situation from amplitube. I believe pod farm is like you said, simply an input knob.

Amplitube does not react that way. It reacts exactly like the real amp does. I can go to my 6505 or the 5150 on the amplitube and the tube screamer does the same thing, it reacts the same way, it does matter which pickups you use as well.

The TS is adding more than signal strength which is exactly what I said. That is why I asked which is preferred. Because to make amplitube sound good, you have to have a strong input signal. You have to pretty much turn the pre amp up to almost clipping (not in the daw, in amplitube) or you can keep the pre amp down and use a tube screamer, a real one, or a digital one. They both will make the signal go up in amplitube.

Why would I skip the amp sim and rock my tube amp? For what? I'm simply writing songs I'm not micing up my amp for that I use these amp sims for writing songs. When I record the real thing, I use the real thing if I want to. Sometimes I don't. For example, I've used a real 5150 on the same song with a fender twin amp sim.

This SHOULD PUT AN END to the argument. If you click this video and watch it, you will see exactly what I've been saying the entire time. And maybe you'll get it. This is from Andrew Wade, he has recorded a lot of popular metal bands. He used amplitube about 50% of the time compared to the real amp. He's going to show you in this video him doing exactly that. And he's going to show you why the input signal matters, and he's going to show you what the two sound like side by side. If you watch this and still don't get it, I cannot explain it anymore. I don't have any more words. I guess you'd just have to see it if you haven't experienced it.

And don't change my words. I didn't say amplitube sim sounds better than my real amp with tubes in it. But on a recording, it's VERY close. As you will see in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48SN0I49EjU

 

[miroslav]

OK....you're talking about how you think that it sounds the same.
I'm saying that a real amp, with real tubes, driving a real speaker, that is actively reacting with the power tubes, and that whole rig then reacts back with your guitar and your playing.....is not the same as algorithms running different equations.

You don't get that real-time playing feel from a sim like you do from an amp.
Didn't you also say that?

In real life, an amp sim will not have the "feel" that is why I run any digital pre amp through a tube power amp to get that feel.

Now....even in the above, if you are using a "digital pre amp" (not sure what that really means, but I assume you mean an A/D interface with a built-in preamp)...how do you go from the the guitar to the interface to the real amp?
IF it's not a direct out back to the amp before the interface, with some kind of split....
...then you are not going to get that guitar<-->amp interplay if your guitar signal is going through the interface.

When you go guitar<-->stomp box<-->tube amp.....it's a different deal than going guitar<-->stomp box<-->interface --->>>tube amp and computer.
So how are you getting a signal from the guitar to your amp?

 

[Greg_L]

There really is no argument to put an end to. The simple fact is you truly don't understand what you're actually doing. If you understood your signal path and how a sim works, you wouldn't be in this position of extreme defensiveness.

What is your actual point here? I'm asking seriously. What are you trying to prove? That you can run a tube screamer into your iphone? Awesome. Knock yourself out.

 

[delirium trigge]

Watch this Greg. You'll see why the input signal being strong before it goes into being digital is important. Like he explains in this video, it is a DI track, it is basically a clean guitar signal. If it's not strong, when you add the amp sim to it, the amp sim will not sound good. It will sound weak. So before you go into the amp sim, before anything goes digital, you need to use something to get a good strong DI signal. You could use a DI box if you wanted, you can just use your interface, but there are advantages to using a tube screamer instead.

Now believe it or not, if you use the digital tube screamer, the same thing happens, but it grabs the signal and boost it digitally. Which produces the same effect but that is not what I am going for, I am going for the DI track being strong before going digital.

The same thing applies to real amps and I'm trying to explain this to you. If you have ever re amped anything you'd know exactly what I'm talking about. If you are re amping with REAL amps, THE SAME thing applies, why do you think most people who re amp use a tube screamer as a clean boost when they are literally just recording a clean guitar signal and no amp is being recorded yet? So they get the strong guitar signal so then when they route to the REAL amp OR AMP SIM it will sound right. It doesn't matter if it's a real amp or an amp sim dude.

Example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNJsBlsoJ6k

Now you wanna talk about just straight up plugging in and recording and arguing that your amp sounds better than an amp sim. And that's not even what I'm talking about.

And I'm not using an iphone I'm using a macbook pro.

I'm doing this exact thing. Watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNJsBlsoJ6k Thats EXACTLY what im doing. Now in your situation since you're using a real amp, if you were DI to re amp YOU WOULD DO THE EXACT SAME THING.

 

[Greg_L]

Edit - never mind.

 

[miroslav]

Like he explains in this video, it is a DI track, it is basically a clean guitar signal. If it's not strong, when you add the amp sim to it.

Mmmmmm.....listen to the video between 3:15 and 4:15....those are his DI signals before any plugs.
They are not "strong" by any stretch.

Now....adding a TS plug or whatever plug, before going to the Amplitube plug....is TOTALLY different...than adding a real TS in front of the interface. The thing you need to get, is the part where you introduce the A/D interface.
IOW.....everything that happens BEFORE the interface is one thing....and everything that happens AFTER is another.
You can't use the interface like it's a stomp box sitting between your guitar and amp....it doesn't really work like that.
That's the part about "signal strength" that I think you are a bit confused about.

The TS plug is already a digital signal...and it's no different than any other digital signal, though of course, it's also a tone shaping device, so it's doing more than just making the signal "stronger", and that's why it's going to sound different than if you just hit Amplitube with your clean digital signal.
A real TS used in front of the interface is also going to tone shape and boost....the point I'm making is it's NOT just about "signal strength" to drive Amplitube in either case...and yes, either TS options will also sound different than just cranking up your interface preamp, which is something different altogether, so I'm not sure why you are comparing them...?
It's like saying....if I turn up the volume on my amp, it sounds better/different than if I just raise the gain on the mic in front of the guitar cab.
Yup...it's apples and oranges.

 

[delirium trigge]

Because you got confused when greg started comparing a different subject.

If you go back to my original question it's a real simple one. Going into amplitube you need a strong enough signal in the DI or the amp sounds like crap, just like re amping a real amp. You can do this with a pre amp on your interface, a separate pre amp, or a real tube screamer or a DI box.

They all have different results. I am finding the tube screamer option better. On youtube I am noticing most people are also doing that. I have also seen some people use the pre amp on the irig HD instead of their interface because their interface pre amp when turned up doesn't have the same affect.

It's no different than re amping. Those di signals are strong, he clearly said they are strong. They aren't weak or the amp won't sound like that. Maybe they don't sound strong to you because they are just a guitar and it's pickups with no amp, but they are strong enough to drive amplitube to sound that way. Which if you watch again he says is one of the most important things. Which is exactly what I've been saying.

I can't believe people are arguing with me that, "It doesn't matter how strong the guitar signal is, the amp sim will sound the same." That is what's being said to me. That is the same thing as saying, "You can record at any level and re amp and the amp will sound the same." It won't and neither do the plug ins.

Amplitube seems to be extremely sensitive to it. The same amp sounds totally different depending on the signal strength. The other guy just got though saying the amp sims sound the same no matter what pickups you use.

I'm starting to feel like I'm surrounded by people who have never re amped a guitar.

I didn't ask anyones opinion on if their real amp sounds better than an amp sim, yet someone wants to debate that? I asked, which way you prefer to get your signal strength as they all produce a different result. I'm seeing most people prefer the tube screamer method if they are using a high gain re amp. Rather a real amp, or a sim.

 

[Greg_L]

So let's recap:

You don't understand reamping.
You don't understand your own sim program.
You don't understand input signals.
You don't understand preamps.
You don't understand A/D conversion.
You don't understand amps.
You don't understand pickups.
You don't understand stomp boxes.
You don't understand signal chain.
You don't understand basic terminology.

And we're all wrong? Okay then. Keep seeking validation through youtube. Everyone knows that is THE place for factual information from knowledgeable people.

 

[MrWrenchey]

And we're all wrong? Okay then. Keep seeking validation through youtube. Everyone knows that is THE place for factual information from knowledgeable people.

I was going to say this when he kept saying "look someone on YouTube agrees with me."

It seems like he's either completely misinterpreting what you're trying to say, ignoring the factual information you're giving him, and/or completely clueless about how any of his gear works.

We've already established at least ONE of those is true, so...

 

[Greg_L]

I was going to say this when he kept saying "look someone on YouTube agrees with me."

It seems like he's either completely misinterpreting what you're trying to say, ignoring the factual information you're giving him, and/or completely clueless about how any of his gear works.

We've already established at least ONE of those is true, so...

Right? Jeez. This is ridiculous. I totally get what he's *trying* to do. And I support his right to do it, as foolish and misguided as it may be. I'm just saying, there's a better, easier, more transparent way to do it. He doesn't want to hear it. He only wants to be told that he's awesome.

 

[delirium trigge]

eh not interesting in forum debates about stupid crap like "my amp is better than yours." I'm too old for that. I provided the youtube link so the guy who believes amplitube is something it isn't can see how it actually works. I think it was a clear question and someone who wants to argue starts an argument and others jump in. Sorta like kids do in school. I get the feeling I'm surrounded by people pretending they do things they don't do. Because when I speak to people who know what they are doing they never speak like this. They seem to understand completely.

 

[delirium trigge]

Greg, you're over your head. You're still on a different subject and don't even realize it. You don't get what I'm trying to do. I get what you think I'm trying to do. But you don't. You clearly don't see how it works. You're talking about a different subject and you're still convinced that's what's being said. No matter what you're shown.

It's foolish to get the right guitar signal to get the amp sim to sound great... very foolish. Should just plug it in and play, it'll sound the same either way right greg? It's one of the most important things to think about when doing this, not foolish.

 

[Greg_L]

Greg, you're over your head. You're still on a different subject and don't even realize it. You don't get what I'm trying to do. I get what you think I'm trying to do. But you don't. You clearly don't see how it works. You're talking about a different subject and you're still convinced that's what's being said. No matter what you're shown.

It's foolish to get the right guitar signal to get the amp sim to sound great... very foolish. Should just plug it in and play, it'll sound the same either way right greg? It's one of the most important things to think about when doing this, not foolish.

If you knew your gear, and you clearly don't, you'd know how to get the "right" signal without a stupid fucking tube screamer.


Does cracked amplitube software come with a manual? If so, read it.

 

[miroslav]

I can't believe people are arguing with me that, "It doesn't matter how strong the guitar signal is, the amp sim will sound the same." That is what's being said to me. That is the same thing as saying, "You can record at any level and re amp and the amp will sound the same." It won't and neither do the plug ins.

No....you're now confused.
No one said that it doesn't matter how strong the guitar signal is. It has to be an adequate level, but it certainly doesn't need a TS to get to that. You can just set the adequate level using your interface preamp gain.
In the video....he's not using any TS...he's just going DI.

Point is....when he says the signal going to Amplitube needs to be strong....that signal is already a digital signal.
So....if you recorded with a decent signal set by the interface preamp gain, and now it's been converted to a digital signal....if it's a little on the low side, or if you just want to hit Amplitube even harder....just raise the level of the digital signal.

Putting a TS in front of the interface is adding more than just signal boost, it's also tone shaping, and maybe you like that, which is fine...., but you have to watch how far you go with the TS, because you can distort the interface preamp, or even clip the converters.
IOW....if all you really want is a stronger signal before Amplitube, you don't need to get nuts in front of the interface. Just get a decent signal, and then feel free to boost in the digital domain.
If on the other hand you want to use a TS in front of the interface for tone shaping...that's different.

 

[delirium trigge]

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I JUST SAID. But no, you get different results doing it by recording the DI signal with a tube screamer or turning your pre amp up on your interface. In that video, he is not using a tube screamer. He is using a Di through and then the saffire pro 40.

The ts in front of the interface for tone shaping yes, but it also increases the signal as it's a stronger output. I have said that over and over. And I simply asked, which do you think sounds better with the amplitube sims? Because the tube screamer does shape the tone, but you get a strong input signal that sounds different than the pre amp on the interface. Your you can simply turn the interface up as I said in the beginning. Or use a separate pre amp and then go into the interface. All 3 will make the amp sim sound different.

Which seems to be common knowledge to anyone who is doing any sort of DI. Almost every time I've seen someone DI with a real amp in a metal band they did it with a tube screamer because then when that signal is ran through the real amp, it shapes the tone and gives it that type of sound. Or you can do it the other way without it and add a digital tube screamer, but that doesn't affect the real amp, or amp sim the same way.

Usually you don't need to go "nuts" in front of the interface. But amplitube sounds like crap if the signal is not strong enough. And it seems to sound even better with a real tube screamer in front of the interface. Or a good pre amp.

Yes, someone did say it didn't matter how strong the guitar signal is. They also said it didn't matter which pickups you use that it will still sound the same. Go to the previous pages and you'll discover that. You have came into the conversation without reading the entire thing.

Not to mention greg editing his post makes it probably sound even more confusing for you.

 

[delirium trigge]

It's not about getting the "RIGHT" signal it's about preference in tone dude and seeing what other people are doing. As long as it's a strong enough signal to drive the amplitube to sound good then it's technically "right" No one NEEDS a tube screamer. But we use them for a reason.

You're clearly an idiot. I have no idea why I'm responding to a fool. Because by responding to a fool it makes the fool sound valid.

 

[bongoboy]

Bigger 1's and 0's sound better,